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6/4/2011 5:12:20 AM
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343 Guilty Spark's dialog in The Two Betrayals Cutscene speculation...
Okay, I apologize if this has been discussed to death already, but I feel it needs to be addressed. In the opening cutscene of "The Two Betrayals", Spark says some strange things.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y_t_vUrmRc[/url]
"Why would you hesitate to do something you have already done?"
"Last time, you asked me 'if it were my choice, would I do it'?"
What "Last time" is he referring to? Is Spark so utterly rampant that he thinks the Chief is a Forerunner that he spoke to millenia ago, or is humanity truly Forerunner?
Whatever your feelings on Cryptum (I know it's popular), set them aside for a moment and think about these lines as they were meant before any of the later novels or games out. Speculate as to what this dialog means without using anything that Combat Evolved pre-dates for reference.
Discuss.
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You just have to love how people blindly accept the word of a rampant AI with compartmentalised intelligence but disregard the Terminals, Vociferous' blog and Cryptum.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan 100 Here, to give you a clue what geas are. Look where it says BUNGIE UNIVERSE, then read the text below it.[/quote] where is that from anyways, always bugs me
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] A JAR OF PICKLE EDIT: Oh, and Humanity IS Forunner. Dude, seriousley, I don't mean to be a jerk, but this stuf is explained to death IN CANON. You shouldn't need to come to the forums for help.[/quote] Cryptum cough cough
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Techno Greek [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan1065 Halo's story used to be simple, epic, and mysterious. Making inferences used to be a thing people did with this series, but that ability has been lost to a -blam!- novel. [/quote] That ability was lost long before Cryptum came along. People got tired of having the mystery of the Foreruner dangled in front of them for 10 years and lost interest. Since you don't want to read Cryptum, read the terminals then.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Vote Obama 2012 master Chief already realized that sparky had gone somewhat insane due to him operating for millions of years.So sparky was probably a little confused[/quote] If by Millions of years you mean 100,000 yes. Also, Chief had no idea the state of Spark.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan 100 Halo is not just a game, it is a really complex universe that you have to get into to understand and give yourself in. [/quote]That's the entire reason I argue the points that I argue.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan 100 Here, to give you a clue what geas are. Look where it says BUNGIE UNIVERSE, then read the text below it.[/quote]Can't do this in two threads, man. Later. Also, Cryptum wasn't even supposed to come up in this thread. That wasn't the point of the OP.
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master Chief already realized that sparky had gone somewhat insane due to him operating for millions of years.So sparky was probably a little confused
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Here, to give you a clue what geas are. Look where it says BUNGIE UNIVERSE, then read the text below it.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Techno Greek [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan1065 You both should read Cryptum.[/quote]Yeah, uh, Cryptum makes me sick, and it ruined the Halo Universe IMO. I'm tired of seeing "You should read Cryptum" (I've been told this multiple times). It's ridiculous. I read several pages of it, got most of the plot-points from the forums and synopsis, and can say with conviction that Greg Bear has put a scar on the story that everyone is calling nose-job. Halo's story used to be simple, epic, and mysterious. Making inferences used to be a thing people did with this series, but that ability has been lost to a -blam!- novel. [/quote] You should read Cryptum. And yeah, I think a few humans have geas'. Don't know what a geas is? Read cryptum. [Edited on 06.03.2011 10:44 PM PDT]
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Halo is not just a game, it is a really complex universe that you have to get into to understand and give yourself in. You can't just decide to take small bits of it and leave rhe rest that you don't like or don't think are true because it's not what you thought. Suck it up, cryptum is probably the best halo book. The halo story is complex and not simple. Humanity have geas is what I believe.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Metroidman42 I strongly believe that everything in the Haloverse was planned from the beginning.[/quote]Watch the making-of discs that came with Halo 2 and Halo 3's special editions. Writing begins post-production every time; there is no Halo manifesto. That's one of the reasons they bring in novelists to flesh things out (no, the novelists aren't given step-by-step instructions as to what they can write...it doesn't work like that; Microsoft commissions the work, and the authors do what they feel like within loose guidelines). This is sometimes good, giving characters solid backgrounds and the reader insight into the happenings elsewhere during the games (Nylund's novels), but it can also convolute and warp the entire backstory and have legions of fans thinking that the Forerunners made the Flood and devolved humanity (Bear's novel).
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I strongly believe that everything in the Haloverse was planned from the beginning.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan1065 You both should read Cryptum.[/quote]Yeah, uh, Cryptum makes me sick, and it ruined the Halo Universe IMO. I'm tired of seeing "You should read Cryptum" (I've been told this multiple times). It's ridiculous. I read several pages of it, got most of the plot-points from the forums and synopsis, and can say with conviction that Greg Bear has put a scar on the story that everyone is calling nose-job. Halo's story used to be simple, epic, and mysterious. Making inferences used to be a thing people did with this series, but that ability has been lost to a -blam!- novel.
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You both should read Cryptum.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Spartan1065 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] A JAR OF PICKLE EDIT: Oh, and Humanity IS Forunner. Dude, seriousley, I don't mean to be a jerk, but this stuf is explained to death IN CANON. You shouldn't need to come to the forums for help.[/quote] Oh really? I would love to see where it specifically states somewhere in the canon that "Humanity IS Forerunner."[/quote]Well, the fact that the Covenant need humans to activate Forerunner tech, Spark's stating "You are the child of my makers. You ARE Forerunner", and his immediately calling the Chief "Reclaimer" and getting him mixed up with a long-dead Forerunner might all have something to do with it.
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to be honest, I think Halo was best when it was just CE story. It was mysterious and left open for questions. The books simply ruin that. Halo started as a game, and Story wise, it should have been continued as a game. There would be less plot holes, but a whole lotta questions. And questions are good. Keeps the interest. And to answer the original post, I believe humanity is not forerunner. But rather Humanity co exists with the covenant as equals. 343 Seems to be obsessed with MC. Maybe, MC IS significant, as a reclaimer. Perhaps the forerunners predicted the reclaimer, one who would have to chose to activate these rings, and programmed guilty to guide him. However, guilty going rampant, instead of guiding the reclaimer, tried to Convince the reclaimer to activate the rings. Cortana found the truth about the rings and stopped MC just in time as well revealing guilty as a liar. Awesome writing =D
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] A JAR OF PICKLE [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Techno Greek [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] A JAR OF PICKLE Yes, he is rampant to the point of believing that MC already fired the Halo's. He mistakes him for the Didact. You didn't infer this? EDIT: Oh, and Humanity IS Forunner. Dude, seriousley, I don't mean to be a jerk, but this stuf is explained to death IN CANON. You shouldn't need to come to the forums for help.[/quote]I KNOW THIS!!! There is a depressing percentage of people on this forum who read Cryptum and disregard the in-game evidence that humanity is Forerunner. They think that we were at war with the Forerunners and Prophets or some crap. This thread's point was to talk about this dialog as-is, not using anything that came after it for reference. [/quote] Well then, I'd say he's simply referencing the events of the Forruner-Flood war. Bungie would have thought that up around the same time as they did the rest of the game's canon.[/quote]Yup. I've been playing through CE again, just for fun. However, my jaw-dropped when I saw the cutscene again. It renewed my faith that the story is salvageable, even after all the damage that's been done. Spark thought that The Chief was the Forerunner who last fired the rings because, well...they were human. He can tell apart Human from Covenant, so he's not so far gone that he mistakes him for something not human-like at all. You know how older people with memory problems will mistake their grandkids for their kids at that age? It's kind of like that with Spark's rampancy. The last fully-armored human he talked to lit the rings. It can be speculated that he could tell that the Chief is Forerunner based on vital-signs, DNA, ect.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] A JAR OF PICKLE EDIT: Oh, and Humanity IS Forunner. Dude, seriousley, I don't mean to be a jerk, but this stuf is explained to death IN CANON. You shouldn't need to come to the forums for help.[/quote] Oh really? I would love to see where it specifically states somewhere in the canon that "Humanity IS Forerunner."
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Techno Greek [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] A JAR OF PICKLE Yes, he is rampant to the point of believing that MC already fired the Halo's. He mistakes him for the Didact. You didn't infer this? EDIT: Oh, and Humanity IS Forunner. Dude, seriousley, I don't mean to be a jerk, but this stuf is explained to death IN CANON. You shouldn't need to come to the forums for help.[/quote]I KNOW THIS!!! There is a depressing percentage of people on this forum who read Cryptum and disregard the in-game evidence that humanity is Forerunner. They think that we were at war with the Forerunners and Prophets or some crap. This thread's point was to talk about this dialog as-is, not using anything that came after it for reference. [/quote] Well then, I'd say he's simply referencing the events of the Forruner-Flood war. Bungie would have thought that up around the same time as they did the rest of the game's canon.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] A JAR OF PICKLE Yes, he is rampant to the point of believing that MC already fired the Halo's. He mistakes him for the Didact. You didn't infer this? EDIT: Oh, and Humanity IS Forunner. Dude, seriousley, I don't mean to be a jerk, but this stuf is explained to death IN CANON. You shouldn't need to come to the forums for help.[/quote]I KNOW THIS!!! There is a depressing percentage of people on this forum who read Cryptum and disregard the in-game evidence that humanity is Forerunner. They think that we were at war with the Forerunners and Prophets or some crap. This thread's point was to talk about this dialog as-is, not using anything that came after it for reference.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Techno Greek [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] A JAR OF PICKLE Yes, he is rampant to the point of believing that MC already fired the Halo's. He mistakes him for the Didact. You didn't infer this?[/quote]I don't think the Didact was even an idea at the time this game was developed. The story has been made-up as Bungie goes along, and I think some things got screwed in the process. [/quote] A good designer leaves hooks like that for Sequels and Prequels. Just look at FF7.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] A JAR OF PICKLE Yes, he is rampant to the point of believing that MC already fired the Halo's. He mistakes him for the Didact. You didn't infer this?[/quote]I don't think the Didact was even an idea at the time this game was developed. The story has been made-up as Bungie goes along, and I think some things got screwed in the process.
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Yes, he is rampant to the point of believing that MC already fired the Halo's. He mistakes him for the Didact. You didn't infer this? EDIT: Oh, and Humanity IS Forunner. Dude, seriousley, I don't mean to be a jerk, but this stuf is explained to death IN CANON. You shouldn't need to come to the forums for help. [Edited on 06.03.2011 9:19 PM PDT]
