[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] B9Liberator 3. Doesn't blow up vehicles, but instead flips them. I have yet to see this discussed, but feel that it would be a worthy addition. Since the Banshee is flight based, it should still explode, but to ground-based vehicles the person in Al should act as a ramp of sorts. [/quote] The entire instant vehicle destruction mechanic would be my second biggest gripe about Armor Lock. Unfortunately I don't think the feature is likely to change thanks to the "Poppin' & Lockin'" achievement. Personally I agree with your suggestion, but it should also paralyze the vehicle and perhaps damage it slightly (I wonder if they would be able to make the change if it was still possible to get the achievement if the splattering vehicle was very damaged?) as it ramps off the Armor Locker. It is a bit more risky for the Armor Locker, but the payoff is larger if their team mates succeed in killing the vehicle's operators as they will now have a slightly used vehicle to go around and kill people with instead of a kill and a large pile of twisted metal. And it adds to the chaos of the game in traditional Halo fashion and makes the prospects of dying as a result of splattering an Armor Locker a lot more enjoyable for vehicle operators. I mean, cmon, at least give us the illusion that if we coordinate with our team mates that we will be able to survive splattering an Armor Locker. As it is now, you're only convincing us to stay back and [url=http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=14553378]use our vehicles in a way that you can't counter with Armor Lock.[/url] If there is even a slightest chance that I would be able to get away unscathed from splattering an Armor Locker I would take the risk each and every time. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Razes all One thing you forgot to mention. What about firefight? For example: When I play Gruntpocalypse the only load out I use is Armor Lock. Sometimes those sneaky Grunts manage to get a lucky stick when I'm not paying attention. That to me is what I like about plasma shedding. That's the only thing you can use Armor Lock for in this situation. A full Armor Lock guarantees certain death from either Grunts spamming Plasma Grenades or Fuel Rod Grunts waiting patiently for you to run out of Armor Lock. [/quote] I don't care so much if you shed a Grunt's Plasma Grenade in Firefight or Campaign, I really only care about Multiplayer when it comes to Plasma Grenade Shedding. That being said, I imagine that there would sort of be a gray area in Firefight Versus where Player Controlled Elites would stick the opposing Spartans who would be able to shed the attacks, but as I don't really play a ton of Firefight Versus I don't particularly care so much >_> [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SoleHalberdier The idea of this is good. No, it's fantastic. The one area that I see a bit of controversy so to speak is this: You don't have to stick the guy to kill him with a plasma grenade. Which brings up this point- If they do the same damage (sticking and close range splash) why have the ability to be protected from one and not the other? I don't know about you or the rest of these forum-goers, but that seems a bit....wrong. I'm not saying that it isn't a good idea, but logically it wouldn't make sense to be able to survive 1 thing but not another. This point brings up the "Well then make it that you die from both" which leads to "Taking damage while in armor lock" which finally leads to "Take out Armor Lock." I'm racking my brain now for a decent solution to this dilemna, but I can't seem to find one. Point in case, this change would have to come with something of, so to speak, equal or greater value. This would probably lead to (DON'T JUDGE ME ON THIS THIS IS JUST WHAT CAME TO ME) "Sapping shields when coming out of Armor Lock." Hmm, I think I'll post about that last topic, but that's beside the point. Hopefully someone will take the time to read this little post before it gets lost in the pages. [/quote] If you fail to stick your opponent and then he enters Armor Lock to avoid the splash damage from the grenade, he should definitely live, even if he walks on top of the grenade and then armor locks. Anything else would just be unfair for the Armor Locker. Now this all depends on exactly how Bungie has coded Plasma Grenades and Armor Lock, but it seems clear to me that they can tell the difference between someone who has been killed by a Plasma Grenade Stick and someone who has been killed by the Splash Damage from a Plasma Grenade as you get a medal for the former action and no medal for the latter action. Seems like all that is required is an If statement. If the Armor Locker is stuck, then Armor Lock doesn't protect the user from the damage delt by that Plasma Grenade. Else, damage is absorbed as usual. I don't see why removing Plasma Grenade Shedding would allow for Armor Lockers to die from splash damage while they are in Armor Lock. It makes perfect sense, in one case the shield would form around the Grenade that is stuck to your body and would be woefully ineffective at protecting you, in the other case, the shield forms normally and the external splash damage is absorbed. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Asmileface Cool thread, but you're a day late.[/quote] For background reference for people who don't converse with me often in private groups, I made myself a goal to post this thread exactly a year after I had posted my [url=http://www.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=43213464]Spiker Thread[/url]. Regardless, your assertion is nonsense. I started posting my Spiker thread on May 23rd, 2010 at 4:51 PM PDT. I finished posting this thread on May 24th, 2011 at 4:49 PM PDT. While it's not "exactly" a year after I posted my Spiker Thread, it's definitely before a "Year and a Day" of posting my Spiker Thread, so rounding down it still counts as "exactly a year later." [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] AgingWhite Fire Hylebos, that does clear a few things up except for one thing a melee is something a player always has and every player has it so it is fairly easy to figure out if they are running up to you that they plan to melee you and you can backpedal or shotgun or use some strategy against them. The Same thing applies to a degree with the Sword, i mean not everyone spawns with ti but even when Sprinting the sword is drawn so you can see it and know they plan to make you into chop suey. however the plasma grenade you cant tell just by looking at them that they plan to stick you. Sticking is the only one of the three that if you get out of swinging range can still kill you.[/quote] I still think that wheeling around your opponent as you approach him or he approaches you will always help to make his Plasma Grenade miss. With a bit of caution this problem is minimalized. And if Point Blank Sticks are still a problem, I encourage you to pursue the solution that I presented in the Original Post. Or perhaps all that needs to be done is slightly increase the time spent in the "winding up for the throw" animation to give players more of a chance to see the attack coming and prepare accordingly. It's still not an issue that is best solved with Plasma Grenade Shedding. [quote]Something else i noticed is in most anti AL threads, people claim that AL is instant when in fact it has a small delay before it is effective. This i know from personal experience trying to destroy a splattering ghost and it splattering me after i hit the AL. My body flips like it was splattered then AL activates for a second as my body lies on the ground [/quote] From my personal testing on a local Xbox, the effects did seem instantaneous. Perhaps you were experiencing a bit of lag when that ghost splattered you as you entered Armor Lock? Regardless, the effects of Armor Lock are definitely more instantaneous than any of the other abillities, so I think my point still stands. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Sh1n1ng Wolf I'd also like to see AAs be blatantly visible on a player's body as shown in this: [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Hylebos [url=http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab249/Hylebosaiden/Pre-BetaArmorlock.jpg]Halo Reach Alpha[/url][/quote] picture. There's no reason to have all of the AAs except Jet Pack be kept secret until they're used. Weapons aren't like that because it's easy to see what someone is holding or has on their back/leg.[/quote] Wouldn't that be nice? When I first saw Armor Lock I thought that it was really cool mostly because it looked so awesome on that Spartan's back. I was so sad when they shrunk it down to the silly-red-square-in-the-small-of-your-back form. I think the game would be a lot cooler (and more fair) if every Armor Abillity had it's own unique back module. It doesn't quite need to be huge and overt, just something big enough to alter the profile of the Spartan to help players identify what they are in for. [quote][/quote] That's all for now folks. Off to lunch. I hear they have catfish. I'll reply more this evening.

While I actually like there finally being a counter to stickies(and all instant kill/unstoppable weapons), you make one extremely good point: there is no longer any way to tell if your intended target has AL. I think visibility is a huge part of this game. If you see someone with a shotgun/sword, you don't rush him head on. If you see someone with a jetpack you are prepared to aim upward when he tries to fly away. This should also apply to AL and stickies. My solution: bring back the giant back pack and leave plasma shedding in. [Edited on 04.25.2011 11:09 AM PDT]

Finally, an argument that makes some sense against Armor Lock. I hate all the threads 'ARMER LOK SUXS RMO+VE FRM HALO!!!!1!'. You bring up several valid points about the skill required to stick but the lack of skill required to Armor Lock. I agree completely with the Nerfs 'A 3 Legged Goat' posted. It maintains the purpose of Armor Lock but adds more skill to the equation. Not exactly easy to see a stick coming and lock BEFORE it gets you. Great thread, nice to see some people are still sentient beings around here. *Note: I'm terrible at sticking, so I'm fairly unbiased.* [Edited on 04.25.2011 11:10 AM PDT]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Admonitor [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] AgingWhite Fire I think what he is getting at is that if a sticky kills you in AL, how does it make sense for a tank shell or a frag grenade not kill you so that would end up changed and AL would be a let the enemy kill me because AL does nothing button[/quote] [quote]I think you misunderstood the point of the post there friend. OP isn't asking for stickies to kill someone if they are already in AL; but if they fail to get out of the way or don't AL up in time then they are dead.[/quote] I respectfully have to say i believe you missed my point as well.I was not referring to the OP but to a comment that a user made in the replies,sorry if i confused you [Edited on 04.25.2011 10:58 AM PDT]

*claps* *gets cookies* (::) (::) (::) Good-ass job Hylebos. You didn't need 65454 characters to explain it though.

This thread made me realise something. You're right. Why should armour lock be the only option to escape the overpowered plasma nades? I say make it so simply hitting b would take the plasma nade off and give you the ability to throw it some other direction, similar to how you throw uncooked grenades away from you in CoD. It would stop armour lockers having a unfair advantage seeing as everyone can shed grenades, it would stop point blank sticks and it would add a whole new level of skill/complexity to plasma nade sticking. Of course you wouldn't be able to armour lock while stuck and you'd have to instantly shed the grenade to not take any damage since the fuse is already lit to make it fair for all parties and you know you can't shed two grenades at once so that wouldn't implicate the plasma launcher too much, just gotta get the damage/time since stick ratio right. [Edited on 04.25.2011 11:00 AM PDT]

That alpha version of armor lock would have totally fixed a lot of problems people complain about. By being able to distinguish between an armor locker and a sprint guy you wouldn't have so many complains about plasma shedding, nor splater denials. Add this to the huge list of mistakes Bungie already made, I guess.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] AgingWhite Fire [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Ryus Shoryuken [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ArtooFeva Sir, while I like you as a member that is simply too long a read. I'm just going to go with saying that I personally do not see shedding as a big problem because without it armor lock would do nothing at all except prevent you from moving at all.[/quote] It would still protect you from all other forms of damage.[/quote] I think what he is getting at is that if a sticky kills you in AL, how does it make sense for a tank shell or a frag grenade not kill you so that would end up changed and AL would be a let the enemy kill me because AL does nothing button[/quote] It makes sense because the sticky grenade is inside of your shielding prior to AL's activation. Anything else sent your way post AL is outside of your shields, and thus you are protected from it.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] AgingWhite Fire I think what he is getting at is that if a sticky kills you in AL, how does it make sense for a tank shell or a frag grenade not kill you so that would end up changed and AL would be a let the enemy kill me because AL does nothing button[/quote] I think you misunderstood the point of the post there friend. OP isn't asking for stickies to kill someone if they are already in AL; but if they fail to get out of the way or don't AL up in time then they are dead. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Brian OA You're stuck = You're dead. Not even Armor Lock should interfere with that formula.[/quote] Ideally [url=http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumblarge_334/1226693315Ypmh83.jpg]this[/url] would be the outcome.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NinjasWithDucks I have a perfect suggestion to nerf AL. Make it work in 0.5 or 1 second bursts like Evade. That way, timing it to avoid grenades will require skill, you will no longer be able to just AL until a teammate saves your ass, and Ghost 'sploding will take an element of timing. Also the EMP needs to be [i] entirely removed [/i] and so does 'nade shedding, as currently it is OP and unfair as hell.[/quote] Like it already was in the Beta? Originally people said it needs to be beefed up because no-one used it. Remember those days when Armour Lock was the poor relative because you just had to stick there. Shedding is good as it keeps them locked for an extra second. If it stuck to them it would blow up straight away not damaging them. If it hits the ground then detonates thats a fraction longer they need to remain in armour lock. The only problem with Armour lock is frosting, If you can move you should not be invincible, apparently having the cutoff "when you can move" is harder to program then it seems otherwise it would be like that. BTW OP nice thesis, no point going into it but not shedding a grenade will still have the same effect. A rejection medal. If you could go into armour lock instantly like in the Beta then it would be a problem. Armour locking is actually quite hard to use effectively when your the one sitting there.

Grenades are less of a threat with alot of armor abilitys now, it only makes sense that armor lock would follow suit. Again alot of anger I see from armor lock stems from it being more direct in how it effects a situation, plenty of people can diveroll out of the way of a grenade, sprint away, or jet pack to safety. But when some one armor locks it, you notice it alot more, and how direct it is is all the more frustrating to the victim. [Edited on 04.25.2011 3:08 AM PDT]

Armour lock isn't in many playlists now, which sucks in my opinion, but at least people who like to stick can do so without fear. I actually like this shedding as you call it. Simply because the amount of times i've died from people who know im going to kill them and just stick me before they die. Annoying. It has its good and bad points in my view. And to end I honestly don't think the plasma grenade is halo.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] A 3 Legged Goat Great post buddy. I'm glad you were finally able to post this. Although I shared many of the same views with you already, you definitely helped me to understand a few things better. Simply put, Plasma Grenade Shedding sacrifices too much on plasma grenades and gives AL an advantage that it already has. Plasma Grenades require timing and precision to use affectively. Holding armor lock as soon as your screen turns blue does not. It's nothing more than the same reflex you get when a bug lands on your arm. Now I'm not saying your arm is overpowered to that bug; that isn't where the analogy is going. What I am saying though is that the grenade had effort put into it. When it lands on you, you know that you worked for that kill. Can you imagine if vehicles could lock up and prevent us from sticking them? This change, along with a nerf to its duration and EMP/frosting are what I'd like to see made to Armor Lock. In the end, you can still stop splatters, still block melees, and still block grenades and rockets. I don't see why AL needs to be anything else. It's reasons like these why I don't even use the Plasma Launcher anymore. Not only has it been nerfed, but now people know that AL is an absolute counter against it. Useless in Invasion. Useless in Elite Slayer. [/quote] I have a perfect suggestion to nerf AL. Make it work in 0.5 or 1 second bursts like Evade. That way, timing it to avoid grenades will require skill, you will no longer be able to just AL until a teammate saves your ass, and Ghost 'sploding will take an element of timing. Also the EMP needs to be [i] entirely removed [/i] and so does 'nade shedding, as currently it is OP and unfair as hell. If my burst ideas are not implemented, the above still applies but Ghost 'sploding needs to be removed and AL usage time needs to be lowered to 3 seconds. No matter what though, frosting NEEDS to be removed. It is OP and actually GIVES THE ALER AN ADVANTAGE when coming out of AL! IMO, AL, DMR bloom and 'nade spam are the main problems with Reach, with AL and its horrible 'nade-shedding, Ghost-'sploding, teammate-waiting, invincibility-making glow at the top of the list. I agree 100% Hylebos, thankyou for putting this so succinctly. PS: My first Halo kill was also a stick kill, I was also a Nintendo fanboy and I was never told the controls either; I accidentally threw the grenade lol...

read the entire thing and i really enjoyed reading it! it indeed does not make any sense for AL to repel the plasma gernade, although i am not much good at sticking myself, i am a Lt. colonel gr3 and only have like 8 sticky kills, in halo 3 that value was much higher for the same amount of play time (although i rarely throw them in the first place so it probally is not due to AL(but them again it might be because there is no realy reason for me to throw em in the first place)) perhaps there should be a risk involved in Aling when you get stuck, you WILL die but perhaps due to the ALing and how it contains the explosion perhaps it might increase the size of the explosion, or just completely vaporize the ALer :D

well for your point blank sticks i have a solution the 2 grenade method:throw one grenade,let the shed it and use up all there armor lock,stick him again,this isnt gunna be any shedding if theres no armor lock the melee method:melee them and repeat the above method of sticking when al is used up

Shedding is the single attribute that is so Obviously unfair i don't understand how Bungie left it in the game either. Its the only AA use that does not need to be timed right at all. I believe Armor Lock is overall the biggest factor to why reach didn't increase its overall player count from halo 3. the abilities brought in new fans but lock has pissed soooo many halo veterans off. Players spawning with Lock and Jetpack also factored into their map design decisions. And Reach has the worst maps BY FAR of any halo game.

+1 Man. Amazing thread and well written. Agreeing 100%

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Ryus Shoryuken [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ArtooFeva Sir, while I like you as a member that is simply too long a read. I'm just going to go with saying that I personally do not see shedding as a big problem because without it armor lock would do nothing at all except prevent you from moving at all.[/quote] It would still protect you from all other forms of damage.[/quote] I think what he is getting at is that if a sticky kills you in AL, how does it make sense for a tank shell or a frag grenade not kill you so that would end up changed and AL would be a let the enemy kill me because AL does nothing button

Good post, OP; and now I totally agree. It hasn't occurred to me to use this in my AL-based arguments. :)

I read the whole thing, a good read, and some very valid points! I love using the plasma grenade when I can, it puts a big smile on my face when I stick someone in the face and see them running around while the blue ball gets bigger, but with armour lock, although I don't hate it, as you said that smile get's instantly turned upside down because you know it should have been a kill. With the fact that armour lock shields about an inch or two off the body, if you stick the person before they go in, it should stay attached and kill them because the grenade would be on the inside of the barrier, instead of it being flicked off. I've played Halo since the beginning and have always loved the effects of plasma grenades, especially when I stick my friends! So much fun. Also before Elite slayer was changed, I used to enjoy it, especially on smaller maps like countdown where it was clumps of players with needles and plasma grenades flying everywhere, so much mayhem, so many explosions, it was just, Halo! Although I still love all the Halo games including reach, I feel I don't have as much fun as I did, 1 because of the elite slayer changes and 2 because of the Plasma grenade shedding. If it can be changed, it definitely should be, make it chaotic fun again! It's what made the previous titles so fun to play. (Well that and the celebratory crouching!) :)

I honestly agree that sticky shedding is ridiculous at times. What I think would be nice is that if you armor lock within half of a second of being stuck only then can it be shed. Heck maybe even take it to a shorter time than that. I would like to still deflect stickies but being able to use armor lock just as you would explode because you reacted fast enough for the long timer is not balanced. If this was about rewarding quick reflexes then you should only be able to shed less then a second after you get stuck. Anything after is unfair in my opinion.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] imnotjakeybot[/quote] If you really believe having immediate invincibility on the 3rd most played FPS out there you have some serious problems. Everyone knows why armor abilities were put there. But having them just "there" doesn't mean they're right. Having them just "there" doesn't mean they are fair, nor balanced, nor even realistic. Some of them don't even seem to belong to a Halo game. You want to turn into stone? Who the hell asked for that in a Halo game?! NO ONE! Bungie put Armor Lock in without asking and they thought it was fine. Listen: [b]THEY[/b] thought it was fine. Now, is it fine? Ask anyone in here, ask any Halo fan, ask anybody off the 500k Reach players if Armor Lock is fine and you´ll have your answer. You're stating Bungie's decissions are absolutely correct, undoubtedly fine, and surpass any other thought and opinion out there. Well, let me tell you even Bungie staff members are human. They can be mistaken. Their ideas can wander. Their thoughts and actions can be wrong. [Edited on 04.24.2011 11:20 PM PDT]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] imnotjakeybot[/quote] Just because it is designed that way and is functioning as intended, it doesn't mean that it is balanced, fair, or good for gameplay. The world can suddenly decide to amend the official basketball rules and say that you can throw the ball at someone's head, and if it knocks them out you score a point. Now it may be designed that way, and you may be scoring points knocking people out, but whether or not that's good for gameplay is still up for debate. I think Armor Lock has too many advantages and not enough disadvantages. The only disadvantage to AL is often a result of player awareness than the actual AA itself. If you activate it in a 1v1 fight and it doesn't change the tide of battle in your favor, then you used it incorrectly and you are probably going to get killed (unless your teamates swoop in). But as Hyle said, this thread isn't about Armor Lock. It's about Plasma Grenade shedding and whether we can justify being invincible to something that is supposed to have killed you already. Even then, it still has a direct coorelation to Armor Lock and your own argument that you presented. The way I see it, Armor Lock may as well make you invulnerable to soft kill barriers.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] master jako11 *Starts Claping*[/quote]

You present some very valid points and make a great argument.