[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Dr D04K Ok, I finally got to actually play test this thing last night with my weekly split-screen game (yes, I have a regular group of friends that enjoy actually sitting in the same room while we play Halo). [/quote] Fantastic! [quote]First off, while the frame rate lag is better than most forged maps out there, and maybe even slightly better than Uncaged, it is certainly not completely free of the problem. Claiming so is just false.[/quote] We've run countless 2 player splitscreen tests and have found no hiccups in frame rate in our current version; 3-4 player splitscreen is a different story after the revisions we've made. Our claims came from the completed Pre-Beta TT that had smooth FR. [quote]Second, I get what the "innovative" dual layer in the center is trying to do, and while I've played several maps that transition between levels with sloped walls like that, none have gone so far as to make it the focal gimmick of the map, so I suppose THAT is innovative. But I just don't find it generates very satisfying gameplay, just my opinion. It is kind of interesting, and it creates situations that are relatively novel for Halo multiplayer, it just feels awkward to spend most of the match hopping and weaving between levels Third, it doesn't feel like the map has any natural flow. It seems to play more like a demo derby, start at the ends of the spokes and race as quickly as you can to the center get one kill if you're lucky, but be left too weak to fight off the next person crashing into the middle. An earlier post mentioned the run and gun play style it promotes and compared it to Citadel. The difference between these maps is that there was a definite flow of play movement that was generated by the design of that map, players could move around the map and get on rolls and killing streaks. This one seems to completely lack that movement. Maybe making the movement around the perimeter and through the middle somewhat one directional would help.[/quote] I feel as though you felt awkward b/c the center does not conform to your playstyle. This of course was intentional. As a group we decided that we wanted the center to reward movement based players weeding out precision based players. This separation of combat causes a filtering effect out to the bases and side rooms where more combat takes place. If you were to play again I'd advise you and your friends to keep an eye out for the numerous paths we've layed out. [quote]I don't really know where that leaves you, since most of this criticism is systemic to the core design. I'm sure you don't care, and I'm sure you'll listen to the positive reviews (I know I would). But I think your time would be better spent building and promoting a completely new map, no matter how much you've already sank into this one. I believe it is a lost cause.[/quote] We really do care! Just from this reply Godly, Jonz, Goat and I had a huge discussion. Every comment including the negatives are taken into consideration. From Height Variation to ease of movement in the center to weapon choice and placement all of these issues are discussed. Granted, the level design is set in stone; but we are now looking only for tweaks to make the map better for the majority of people who enjoy the map. thank you for your support.

Ok, I finally got to actually play test this thing last night with my weekly split-screen game (yes, I have a regular group of friends that enjoy actually sitting in the same room while we play Halo). First off, while the frame rate lag is better than most forged maps out there, and maybe even slightly better than Uncaged, it is certainly not completely free of the problem. Claiming so is just false. Second, I get what the "innovative" dual layer in the center is trying to do, and while I've played several maps that transition between levels with sloped walls like that, none have gone so far as to make it the focal gimmick of the map, so I suppose THAT is innovative. But I just don't find it generates very satisfying gameplay, just my opinion. It is kind of interesting, and it creates situations that are relatively novel for Halo multiplayer, it just feels awkward to spend most of the match hopping and weaving between levels. Third, it doesn't feel like the map has any natural flow. It seems to play more like a demo derby, start at the ends of the spokes and race as quickly as you can to the center get one kill if you're lucky, but be left too weak to fight off the next person crashing into the middle. An earlier post mentioned the run and gun play style it promotes and compared it to Citadel. The difference between these maps is that there was a definite flow of play movement that was generated by the design of that map, players could move around the map and get on rolls and killing streaks. This one seems to completely lack that movement. Maybe making the movement around the perimeter and through the middle somewhat one directional would help. I don't really know where that leaves you, since most of this criticism is systemic to the core design. I'm sure you don't care, and I'm sure you'll listen to the positive reviews (I know I would). But I think your time would be better spent building and promoting a completely new map, no matter how much you've already sank into this one. I believe it is a lost cause.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] A 3 Legged Goat [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Sparnog you should call this map Crossfire :D[/quote] I actually like this name better than "Think Twice", but now that I look at it there are quite a few Crossfire maps out there already. [/quote] Yeah true, it is a pretty generic name. Still, it fits the map awesomely. If anyone is running customs on this map, plz friend request me on xwilldathrilx. thanks :) [Edited on 04.15.2011 2:39 AM PDT]

This map belongs in Matchmaking permanently.'nuff said.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SIMAN166 Have you searched around the map for any hiding places that could be kill-zoned?[/quote] Every place that players can access is by design. There are no unfavorable positions on the map, and if there are they are exposed enough to not be a bother. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] shivrsharma27 I have to say this map was a dissapointment. I was really excited about it, but after playing on it with friends, it just isn't that good.[/quote] What didn't you like about the map?

Have you guys tried the Grenade Launcher yet? If you do I'd like to join in a game of that. Probably won't be back until Saturday, though.

Have you searched around the map for any hiding places that could be kill-zoned?

I have to say this map was a dissapointment. I was really excited about it, but after playing on it with friends, it just isn't that good.

That be the case, I apologize for getting defensive. You know me, I have a tendency to call things a certain way and be excessively blunt with it. On the upswing of things, at least I take the time to play maps outside of the MLG Forge community... Unlike my so-called peers. :/ Anyhow, same as before, best of luck with the map. I really do like the concept of the middle halls... Shamefully I'm far too much a traditionalist to ever implement something innovative like that to any of my designs. Then again... When you forge to appease the pros, its best to take a conservative style. ;) Cheers.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TuefulHunden87 I believe Bleu, who has no history with you or any of the others or any incentive to make false claims of frame rate, also said in game that he caught some as well. Considering the sheer amount of glass and lights, its not surprising. I caught dropped frames while staring down bottom mid strafing back and forth with my DMR... And I'm positive its the covy shields that stimulated it. Then again, us MLG forgers are a bit more sensitive to frame rate that y'all. Having a consistent loss of minimal frames is still something that breaks a maps playability. This is why we flat out refuse to use certain pieces and try to avoid excessive merging of objects. Lips aren't something that should be a "disadvantage", they should be something that does not exist. Every transition in elevation should be smooth and virtually seamless, aside from the occasional jump up that is. I'm disappointed that you took issue with my feed back. This is an open beta is it not? You're looking for feed back. I gave you my feed back and you can take it or leave it. But to dismiss it our right and take it as an attack, as you appear to have, is uncalled for and very elitist in nature. I mean no offense by this, but don't think because your run a website and write articles about game design you are some how infallible. Personally, my predictions in regards to this map is that very few substantial changes will be made as you, the expert, find the map satisfying as is. That being so, this thread is not actually an attempt to collect feed back but a facade in that aspect as your really aiming to build hype for the map. /rant.[/quote] I didn't take issue to your feedback at all. I was just explaining why things were the way they were. I apologize if I came off the wrong way. Your feedback is welcome. Where did I imply that I took it as an attack and dismiss it out right? If I had done that I would have just said that you were wrong, but instead I gave reasoning for why we are keeping things the way they are in regards to the things that you addressed. And your predictions are wrong. The map has changed quite a bit throughout its testing you can ask others who have been testing the map since its birth. You can believe what you will good sir, but insulting me isn't going to get you anywhere. Stick to the feedback. Not every transition has to be smooth and virtually seamless. More like the transition has to be smooth and virtually seamless from the directions that the designer(s) want. We will consider a "bowl" in bottom center to improve the transitions, but currently it is staying the way it is until we can find something that fits cohesively. However there are times where a player's situational awareness of his/her environment should be a factor in whether or not their transition is seamless. This is the case with staircases that have railings. A person is expected to be aware that there are railings and not to trip over them. By your logic every ramp should have a bank. This is not always the case.

I believe Bleu, who has no history with you or any of the others or any incentive to make false claims of frame rate, also said in game that he caught some as well. Considering the sheer amount of glass and lights, its not surprising. I caught dropped frames while staring down bottom mid strafing back and forth with my DMR... And I'm positive its the covy shields that stimulated it. Then again, us MLG forgers are a bit more sensitive to frame rate that y'all. Having a consistent loss of minimal frames is still something that breaks a maps playability. This is why we flat out refuse to use certain pieces and try to avoid excessive merging of objects. Lips aren't something that should be a "disadvantage", they should be something that does not exist. Every transition in elevation should be smooth and virtually seamless, aside from the occasional jump up that is. I'm disappointed that you took issue with my feed back. This is an open beta is it not? You're looking for feed back. I gave you my feed back and you can take it or leave it. But to dismiss it our right and take it as an attack, as you appear to have, is uncalled for and very elitist in nature. I mean no offense by this, but don't think because your run a website and write articles about game design you are some how infallible. Personally, my predictions in regards to this map is that very few substantial changes will be made as you, the expert, find the map satisfying as is. That being so, this thread is not actually an attempt to collect feed back but a facade in that aspect as your really aiming to build hype for the map. /rant.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Sparnog you should call this map Crossfire :D[/quote] I actually like this name better than "Think Twice", but now that I look at it there are quite a few Crossfire maps out there already. [Edited on 04.14.2011 12:21 PM PDT]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Lord Spartan GH [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SonOfTheShire [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Lord Spartan GH But the sword is OP because of sprint...the hammer isnt because of the disance.[/quote] Wait, [i]what?[/i][/quote]Didnt the person who was complaining about the hammer say he wanted a sword? I was defending the hammer cause its perfect for that map.[/quote] Yes, but you were claiming that the sword is overpowered because of sprint, whilst the hammer isn't. Which is ridiculous.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Lord Spartan GH [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SonOfTheShire [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TuefulHunden87 Further more, the covy shields also contribute to frame rate lag. Yes, frame rate lag.[/quote] Frame-rate lag? I was playing this map in 2-player split-screen last night and I experienced no frame-rate problems. It's even been tested in 3-player split-screen and there were no frame-rate problems. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Lord Spartan GH But the sword is OP because of sprint...the hammer isnt because of the disance.[/quote] Wait, [i]what?[/i][/quote]Didnt the person who was complaining about the hammer say he wanted a sword? I was defending the hammer cause its perfect for that map.[/quote] I completely agree that the hammer is perfect for this map. The lunge on the sword could get really ridiculous and the shotgun, just doesn't feel right. It is nice to have a map that utilizes a different weapon setup to give a unique experience compared to other maps.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SonOfTheShire [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TuefulHunden87 Further more, the covy shields also contribute to frame rate lag. Yes, frame rate lag.[/quote] Frame-rate lag? I was playing this map in 2-player split-screen last night and I experienced no frame-rate problems. It's even been tested in 3-player split-screen and there were no frame-rate problems. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Lord Spartan GH But the sword is OP because of sprint...the hammer isnt because of the disance.[/quote] Wait, [i]what?[/i][/quote]Didnt the person who was complaining about the hammer say he wanted a sword? I was defending the hammer cause its perfect for that map.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TuefulHunden87 Map has some interesting design elements and shows potential, but over all I'd have to say that it is fundamentally flawed. There is too little incentive to move along the outer hallways and rooms, most players cut through the cluster f*** in the center. Personally, I like the design of the center as the transitions from top to bottom are amazing. Unfortunately there is FAR too much cover in there. Knock out the covy sheilds and the column top mid. Dropping the cover will cut back on the incentive to move through the middle, which will enhance over all movement flow in the map. Further more, the covy shields also contribute to frame rate lag. Yes, frame rate lag. In whole screen. Very frustrating. Drop the one way shields, they're unnecessary and also can lead to frame rate complications. There are a few areas the need smoothed out as well. One of the most annoying occurrences in a map is when you get caught on a lip while fighting off an opponent in a DMR battle. Case in point, bottom mid has 8 such lips. I'd also reconsider the hammer on such a small map... Especially with sprint. Over all, fairly solid map. Most definitely needs some more work though. Best of luck to you.[/quote] Are you aware that you are the ONLY person who thinks that there is too much incentive in the center? Everyone else thinks there is not enough incentive in the center. And the portable shields aren't part of the cover in the center. They are part of the cover at the base. It allows players to safely put themselves on even footing with those that are in the center. Without cover like that, the center is too easy to control because you can't properly assault it without being at a disadvantage. And framerate drop? Really? No one has ever experienced framerate drop in that area... the only spot is across bottom center from gold to green or vice versa. Which we believe we may have fixed. As for the lips, they are not as hindering as normal lips because they are now banks, so when you strafe against them instead of getting caught you just keep sliding, but backwards towards the base of the ramp. We fully intended the ramps to work that way in bottom center. You don't fully get caught, but you do suffer from that disadvantage. As for the hammer, it plays really well on this map because there is a good mix of long and short sight lines. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] fxhomedude I haven't played it alot, but it looks good. The aesthetics are great (for a pure forge map) and no lag. The layout is well done. Enough turns and twists to keep it interesting, but not in any way confusing. Weapon placement is where I would argue though. A sniper rifle? Places like Jackal Creek, or if you remember New Venice/Mine site from the community playlist make use of it alot better. The lines of site aside from the main walkways aren't that great. I think a better weapon could be used there. [i]A[/i] plasma launcher would work to me, but that's your choice. Speaking of plasma launchers, I'm mixed on them. Again, the combat is rather short range, limiting it's use. I think 1 would be more fitting, or even grenade launchers instead. But again, that's just how I would do it. Movement is smooth, how ever I would say that the center area can get congested, and erm, grenade spam happy. None the less, great map that I'd love to see in matchmaking.[/quote] While the sniper weapon is not completely dominant, it can be in the right situations. Because of the long lines of sight through the center it can really pay off to control it. Sure it can be better on some maps, but this is our way of balancing the sniper so that it doesn't over dominate. It plays well and because it can cover so much range it can be great for watching the center and keeping players out of there. The top center weapon used to be a plasma launcher, but it was changed because the plasma launcher is not a good enough weapon and does not have enough incentive pull to attract players to top center. People love the sniper and it tends to pull people towards it naturally. As far as the plasma launchers go we feel that we want to keep them because it keeps the map unique and helps it stand out because the plasma launcher is not a very common weapon. With having one at each base it allows players to familiarize themselves with it. It is a weapon that takes skill to be a power weapon. In the right hands it can play like rockets, and in the hands of the average player it can play like the grenade launcher or concussion rifle as a mid tier weapon. The pro pipe has been considered heavily, but with the angles of the center it is tough to get the shots to connect. Some people already don't pick up the grenade launcher often so with that added it can make the grenade launcher a very underused weapon on the map. Glad you enjoy the map though bro.

I joined RP recently, and I have to say, this map is, indeed, unique. I'm not sure how the two Plasma Launchers will fair, but I'm really enjoying the structures and the unique gameplay it will encourage. I'd like to get a test it with more people, but currently, that is all the feedback I can give. The gameplay will be indicative to the people playing, so I'm not sure how map progression will occur. The center seems to be an area of high traffic, so we'll have to see. [Edited on 04.14.2011 11:41 AM PDT]

I haven't played it alot, but it looks good. The aesthetics are great (for a pure forge map) and no lag. The layout is well done. Enough turns and twists to keep it interesting, but not in any way confusing. Weapon placement is where I would argue though. A sniper rifle? Places like Jackal Creek, or if you remember New Venice/Mine site from the community playlist make use of it alot better. The lines of site aside from the main walkways aren't that great. I think a better weapon could be used there. [i]A[/i] plasma launcher would work to me, but that's your choice. Speaking of plasma launchers, I'm mixed on them. Again, the combat is rather short range, limiting it's use. I think 1 would be more fitting, or even grenade launchers instead. But again, that's just how I would do it. Movement is smooth, how ever I would say that the center area can get congested, and erm, grenade spam happy. None the less, great map that I'd love to see in matchmaking.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TuefulHunden87 Further more, the covy shields also contribute to frame rate lag. Yes, frame rate lag.[/quote] Frame-rate lag? I was playing this map in 2-player split-screen last night and I experienced no frame-rate problems. It's even been tested in 3-player split-screen and there were no frame-rate problems. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Lord Spartan GH But the sword is OP because of sprint...the hammer isnt because of the disance.[/quote] Wait, [i]what?[/i]

The map looks very fun. I would love to try it out. One problem though. It makes all my maps look like crap.

btw the map is awesome and i love the heart shaped pillar in the middle :)

you should call this map Crossfire :D

I wish I could build a map and get as much great commentation on it. Then again, I haven't built a map as good as this one yet. Time to start working for that.

Map has some interesting design elements and shows potential, but over all I'd have to say that it is fundamentally flawed. There is too little incentive to move along the outer hallways and rooms, most players cut through the cluster f*** in the center. Personally, I like the design of the center as the transitions from top to bottom are amazing. Unfortunately there is FAR too much cover in there. Knock out the covy sheilds and the column top mid. Dropping the cover will cut back on the incentive to move through the middle, which will enhance over all movement flow in the map. Further more, the covy shields also contribute to frame rate lag. Yes, frame rate lag. In whole screen. Very frustrating. Drop the one way shields, they're unnecessary and also can lead to frame rate complications. There are a few areas the need smoothed out as well. One of the most annoying occurrences in a map is when you get caught on a lip while fighting off an opponent in a DMR battle. Case in point, bottom mid has 8 such lips. I'd also reconsider the hammer on such a small map... Especially with sprint. Over all, fairly solid map. Most definitely needs some more work though. Best of luck to you.

is the map going to be in matchmaking

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] General_Rafa Hey Sven, I sent you a friend request.[/quote] just accepted the FR = ]