[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Child0fTheMind Carters death was completely avoidable. First, there was no purpose in ramming the Scarab in the first place (it did nothing for the mission and the Scarab wasn't even bothering with them). Second, all he had to do was aim the Pelican and then run out the open bay door in the back (gravity and momentum would've taken effect and drove it into the Scarab anyway).[/quote] That was the only viable way he could kill the Scarab, the Pelican had no missile armament, just the machine guns, and they weren't going to really cut it. Plus the Scarab was targetting Six and Emile with its laser. And Carter tried distracting and leading the Scarab away first, at least I'd assume that's why he started shooting it and veering off, but that didn't work, it went right back to targeting Six and Emile once it saw what was shooting at it. And Carter suicide bombing the Scarab actually did further the mission, it saved Six and allowed her to deliver the Package. Even if Carter did jump out of the Pelican he was pretty much bleeding out, he was definitely in a condition that was bad enough to require immediate medical attention.

He wanted to give his life to Reach, and he believed that Noble 6 would be more of a help on the ground.

How come only the large Spartans stay behind?

The scarab was charging it's beam directly at Emile and Six, it stopped when Carter fired on it, glancing toward the pelican before resettling and starting again.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spurkis Linda with her Sniper Rifle and Emile with his Shotgun is aaall good, I acknowledge that Spartans have their fields of expertise and use weapons that are appropriate to them. But its different with Jorge because he can't use melee attacks without dropping his weapon, he can't sprint for his life and he has to put down his weapon when doing casual things, like when he's calming down Sára, whilst others can just attach their weapons to their backs. He can't use vehicles regularly, except for transport Falcons obviously. Armor Abilities are also unavaible to him. While some of them may be a little fuzzy, the Jetpack is at least canon and Jorge surely can't use it (dunno if this argument is that valid considering its an NPC, but since AA are a major factor in Reach I added it). Before Reach I didn't even think ripped-off turrets were actually weapons used by the military, I thought it was just something Master Chief did when he wanted to go bat-blam!- on The Covenant. It's highly unusual, and just look how Blain from Predator ended up. That's right, with his guts spilled all over by plasma fire. Even with his strength, Jorge's potential as a jack of all trades Spartan WITH a field of expertise is lost when he carries this thing around. In the Zealot encounter we see him crouching when the FM appears and when Six picks up his/her AR. Even if we never saw him until you "clear the hole" with him, had he fired or done anything, we would've heard it, especially since Kat and Carter didn't make a noise. Well, for one he is much stronger than Six, as shown when he picks him up with ease and throws him away. His speed isn't shown though, since he uses that gun I curse so much. It's also a fact that Spartan-IIIs are all cheaper versions of the II's, although the differences are thin. Quoting the wiki: "Jorge is the only member of Noble Team that has seen as much action, if not more, against human militants as Covenant forces." "[...] 30 years of action" This indicates that Jorge is quite the massacrist (is that a word?). Also, Six is naturally a talent since he's the protagonist. It would be thin if was a normal Spartan with no noticeable accomplishments and then totally owning everything as soon as the players starts controlling him.[/quote] Jorge actually can and does melee enemies, quite a bit too I might add, mostly he hangs back from the enemies and lays down suppressive fire, which is what one would do with a turret. There's no difference between the Falcons in campaign and in Matchmaking, Bungie just made the Falcons hold less people in MM for balancing reasons IIRC, and we've never seen Jorge attempt to get a different type of vehicle, so we don't know how well he'd end up fitting in a different vehicle. Well technically it's not a ripped off turret =P But yeah, I get what you're saying, I didn't really think they were used either, but it's not surprising that they are used in that way. I have not seen Predator, so I cannot interject anything into that or really respond to your comparison, but didn't the Predator use something similar to Active Camo most of the time?

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] II Cipher Why? Jorge is a Spartan 2, he's better all round than N6 and a lot more of a valuable asset than a S3. The death of Jorge really didn't make sense. Jorge detonating the bomb didn't make sense, 6 should have done it.[/quote] Jorge chose to stay, He told 6. He though this would end the battle for Reach He lived there he owed it to Reach, and he physical picked up 6 and through 6 out of the ship. Its not like 6 would have moved out of the way and said, "Im doing this, I'm staying" It would be for no reason.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DecepticonCobra The Scarab was charging it's beam at Six and Emile. Carter's pestering stopped this once, then the Scarab resumed charging. After that, Carter rammed into the Scarab and allowed Six and Emile to go foreward. And sure, maybe he could've jumped, but he was in no position to. He was bleeding all over, from his chest, from his mouth, and on the Pelican's windshield. Did you even notice any of that? And why are you so sure Jorge couldn't arm the bomb? Kat may be in charge of tech, but any idito can arm a bomb or detonate it manually. The rebels and Insurrectionists did it a lot and I doubt they were hacking experts.[/quote] I don't remember the Scarab ever charging it's beam at You or Emile, I remember it charging it's Beam at a completely different angle... Also, Carters wounds weren't as blood gushingly horrible or immediately life threatening as you like to describe. There are several stories in Halo canon of Spartans wounded much worse than Carter and continuing on with the mission without slowing the group down. I'm not saying that Jorge wouldn't be able to arm the bomb, I'm saying that it would've made more sense for it too have been Kat (Her Idea, Her Plan, Her Bomb, etc.). The bomb was not any average bomb, are you kidding? Not just anybody can arm any old bomb and detonate it... Bombs are made in a number of different ways, have a number of different wiring, and have a number of different detonation techniques. No one bomb is like another, and all those insurrectionists, you can bet that they were trained how to detonate their bombs. Why do you think the military trains groups extensively for the sole purpose of bomb disposal? Because they have to know how to not arm the bombs that they are trying to dispose of. if an "idiot" would know how to arm the bomb, then an "idiot" would know how to not arm the bomb...

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Child0fTheMind [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DecepticonCobra Carter's death was unavoidable. He was in no position to jump out of a flaming Pelican and walk all the way to the Autumn. Jorge had some meaning, he told Six to not deny him his death. Kat just shows that nobody is safe, not even a Spartan. Course, I knew that after Sam's suit was breached and he wouldn't be able to survive in TFoR.[/quote] Carters death was completely avoidable. First, there was no purpose in ramming the Scarab in the first place (it did nothing for the mission and the Scarab wasn't even bothering with them). Second, all he had to do was aim the Pelican and then run out the open bay door in the back (gravity and momentum would've taken effect and drove it into the Scarab anyway). Jorge had meaning, but Kat could've had the same meaning and would've made more sense too (being that she's the tech expert and came up with the whole slipspace bomb idea, she would've truly been the only one to be able to manually detonate it...) Jun could've showed the same as Kat (that nobody is safe) but it would've also been ironic that he was sniped, being a sniper and all... These deaths would've just made more sense for the characters then the games versions... And it would've left Jorge alive with Dr. Halsey which would've made more sense than Jun being the one left alive with Dr. Halsey. Him being the Spartan II and all.[/quote] The Scarab was charging it's beam at Six and Emile. Carter's pestering stopped this once, then the Scarab resumed charging. After that, Carter rammed into the Scarab and allowed Six and Emile to go foreward. And sure, maybe he could've jumped, but he was in no position to. He was bleeding all over, from his chest, from his mouth, and on the Pelican's windshield. Did you even notice any of that? And why are you so sure Jorge couldn't arm the bomb? Kat may be in charge of tech, but any idito can arm a bomb or detonate it manually. The rebels and Insurrectionists did it a lot and I doubt they were hacking experts.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DecepticonCobra Carter's death was unavoidable. He was in no position to jump out of a flaming Pelican and walk all the way to the Autumn. Jorge had some meaning, he told Six to not deny him his death. Kat just shows that nobody is safe, not even a Spartan. Course, I knew that after Sam's suit was breached and he wouldn't be able to survive in TFoR.[/quote] Carters death was completely avoidable. First, there was no purpose in ramming the Scarab in the first place (it did nothing for the mission and the Scarab wasn't even bothering with them). Second, all he had to do was aim the Pelican and then run out the open bay door in the back (gravity and momentum would've taken effect and drove it into the Scarab anyway). Jorge had meaning, but Kat could've had the same meaning and would've made more sense too (being that she's the tech expert and came up with the whole slipspace bomb idea, including how it would work, she would've truly been the only one to be able to handle any problems with detonating it...) Jun could've showed the same as Kat (that nobody is safe) but it would've also been ironic that he was sniped, being a sniper and all... These deaths would've just made more sense for the characters then the games versions... And it would've left Jorge alive with Dr. Halsey which would've made more sense than Jun being the one left alive with Dr. Halsey. Him being the Spartan II and all. [Edited on 04.23.2011 1:34 PM PDT]

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Child0fTheMind Personally, I think most the deaths of the team were quite silly. First, shouldn't Kat have been the person to manually detonate the slipspace bomb, as she was the tech member that would've known how to detonate a slipspace bomb that jorge should've had no knowledge of how to do... Then, shouldn't Jun have been killed by a sniper shot, as a sort of ironic ending to his character (instead of being the only one not seen killed...) Then, shouldn't Jorge have been the character to escort Dr. Halsey away, being their connection with him being a Spartan II and all. And because you wouldn't want the genius, who already expects something from your group and isn't authorized to know about the S-III project, to be having alone time with a S-III... (and in the books she was never found with a S-III, but was found with a few unnamed S-II's...) Carter's death was completely unnecessary, as destroying the Scarab did nothing for the mission of getting Cortana to the Pillar of Autumn... and he could've simply aimed the Pelican to fly into the Scarab and then jumped out the back before impact. (He should've lasted till the end to die with Noble-6 against the armada) I felt that Emile's death was the only worthy Spartan death (for the right character) other than Noble-6, in the whole game... First he took a plasma sword through the chest (against an Elite that probably crept up to him from behind so that he wouldn't appear on Emile's radar), and then he took that Elite and a second with him to their untimely end.[/quote] Well the SIIs actually did get a lot of education in addition to their military training, Jorge would know how to mess around with the interface rigged to the "bomb", it wouldn't take Kat or a tech guru to interface with it. I don't know whether Kat could have fixed the timer or not if she had been the one to go instead of Jorge. Carter's death may have been avoidable somehow, but the way events played out in the game his death could not have been avoided, and even if he could have jumped out, he wouldn't have really gone anywhere, he was bleeding pretty heavily and would have only slowed Six and Emile down. As for Jun, he may have died defending Halsey at CASTLE Base, or he died helping the wounded Spartan IIs get inside, or there is the possibility that he left with all the other people from CASTLE base when it was evacuated.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] chubbz [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] II Cipher Why? Jorge is a Spartan 2, he's better all round than N6 and a lot more of a valuable asset than a S3. The death of Jorge really didn't make sense. Jorge detonating the bomb didn't make sense, 6 should have done it.[/quote] 6 is an S-II also, so I fail to see how a deformed S-II drop-out relegated to an S-III squad is better than an S-II with experience in black ops and 'off the grid' programs.[/quote] Six is a Spartan-III...

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] II Cipher Why? Jorge is a Spartan 2, he's better all round than N6 and a lot more of a valuable asset than a S3. The death of Jorge really didn't make sense. Jorge detonating the bomb didn't make sense, 6 should have done it.[/quote] 6 is an S-II also, so I fail to see how a deformed S-II drop-out relegated to an S-III squad is better than an S-II with experience in black ops and 'off the grid' programs.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Child0fTheMind [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DecepticonCobra Not everybody gets to die a defiiant and heroic death like Six and Emile, the books are filled with Spartans meeting "silly" ends.[/quote] Hm... not really, most deaths were meaningful, unavoidable, or ironic... Actually, I don't think there has been a depiction of a death that wasn't one of those three... All the deaths in Reach could've been one of these three and it wouldn't have changed the story, just made a little more sense. (Especially that the game depicts Noble-6, an unnamed Spartan to be the last Spartan standing during the Fall of Reach, when it could've had other members of Noble team still alive and die during the final scene (doing this by taking off the normal game restraint of not allowing the Noble team members to die like the Marines, just make them equal or a little better than the elites and program their AI to fight until they die.)[/quote] Carter's death was unavoidable. He was in no position to jump out of a flaming Pelican and walk all the way to the Autumn. Jorge had some meaning, he told Six to not deny him his death. Kat just shows that nobody is safe, not even a Spartan. Course, I knew that after Sam's suit was breached and he wouldn't be able to survive in TFoR.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DecepticonCobra Not everybody gets to die a defiiant and heroic death like Six and Emile, the books are filled with Spartans meeting "silly" ends.[/quote] Hm... not really, most deaths were meaningful, unavoidable, or ironic... Actually, I don't think there has been a depiction of a death that wasn't one of those three... All the deaths in Reach could've been one of these three and it wouldn't have changed the story, just made a little more sense. (Especially that the game depicts Noble-6, an unnamed Spartan to be the last Spartan standing during the Fall of Reach, when it could've had other members of Noble team still alive and die during the final scene (doing this by taking off the normal game restraint of not allowing the Noble team members to die like the Marines, just make them equal or a little better than the elites and program their AI to fight until they die.)

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Child0fTheMind Personally, I think most the deaths of the team were quite silly. First, shouldn't Kat have been the person to manually detonate the slipspace bomb, as she was the tech member that would've known how to detonate a slipspace bomb that jorge should've had no knowledge of how to do... Then, shouldn't Jun have been killed by a sniper shot, as a sort of ironic ending to his character (instead of being the only one not seen killed...) Then, shouldn't Jorge have been the character to escort Dr. Halsey away, being their connection with him being a Spartan II and all. And because you wouldn't want the genius, who already expects something from your group and isn't authorized to know about the S-III project, to be having alone time with a S-III... (and in the books she was never found with a S-III, but was found with a few unnamed S-II's...) Carter's death was completely unnecessary, as destroying the Scarab did nothing for the mission of getting Cortana to the Pillar of Autumn... and he could've simply aimed the Pelican to fly into the Scarab and then jumped out the back before impact. (He should've lasted till the end to die with Noble-6 against the armada) I felt that Emile's death was the only worthy Spartan death (for the right character) other than Noble-6, in the whole game... First he took a plasma sword through the chest (against an Elite that probably crept up to him from behind so that he wouldn't appear on Emile's radar), and then he took that Elite and a second with him to their untimely end.[/quote] Not everybody gets to die a defiant and heroic death like Six and Emile, the books are filled with Spartans meeting "silly" ends.

I loved reading Halsey's journal.

Saying Jorge wouldn't know how to push the "Go button" is stupid. Carter's death was needed. He couldn't have jumped out and survived the fall. If he hadn't the scarab would have fried them.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Cmdr DaeFaron The way the S3 children were picked sounds like this (most likely theory.) First, select all children with S2 gene requirements. Second, start filling in the rest with children who have the higher 'quality' genes that can now work with the augmentations, not quite S2, but definitely not average person. If the S3's used 'crappier/more normal genes' then beta company would have had 1000 members, instead of the 300 so it did.[/quote] Actually, ONI choose the orphened refugee children from the defeated outer colony planets before any other canadates. They were the right age and had the attitude they were looking for at the time. I'm sure some of those kids had the S-II gene requirements... But also, at the time of the S-II project, there were only 300 children that had the gene's. 150 of which were the ones interviewed by Dr. Halsey, 75 of which picked to train. And all of those children would then be adults by the time the S-III's were picked, and with the rarity of the S-II requirements, I doubt that the genes are dominant. And so there would most likely be even less than 300 during the next plucking... Not all of which have survived the glassing of their planets.

Personally, I think most the deaths of the team were quite silly. First, shouldn't Kat have been the person to manually detonate the slipspace bomb, as she was the tech member that would've known how to detonate a slipspace bomb that jorge should've had no knowledge of how to do... Then, shouldn't Jun have been killed by a sniper shot, as a sort of ironic ending to his character (instead of being the only one not seen killed...) Then, shouldn't Jorge have been the character to escort Dr. Halsey away, being their connection with him being a Spartan II and all. And because you wouldn't want the genius, who already expects something from your group and isn't authorized to know about the S-III project, to be having alone time with a S-III... (and in the books she was never found with a S-III, but was found with a few unnamed S-II's...) Carter's death was completely unnecessary, as destroying the Scarab did nothing for the mission of getting Cortana to the Pillar of Autumn... and he could've simply aimed the Pelican to fly into the Scarab and then jumped out the back before impact. (He should've lasted till the end to die with Noble-6 against the armada) I felt that Emile's death was the only worthy Spartan death (for the right character) other than Noble-6, in the whole game... First he took a plasma sword through the chest (against an Elite that probably crept up to him from behind so that he wouldn't appear on Emile's radar), and then he took that Elite and a second with him to their untimely end.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] spurkis While leadership is his field, Master Chief is still an all-rounder like Carter and Johnson in the way they all use a quite big variety of arms, whereas CQC experts mainly use shotguns, snipers use sniper rifles etc.[/quote] True, but making it sound like Linda would like at a shotgun with a "Wat dis?" look is completely wrong. Just because Chief and others have been seen using a variety of weapons more doesn't make them better then others. [Edited on 04.23.2011 11:34 AM PDT]

While leadership is his field, Master Chief is still an all-rounder like Carter and Johnson in the way they all use a quite big variety of arms, whereas CQC experts mainly use shotguns, snipers use sniper rifles etc.

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] aidmania [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] manwith [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] kit_103 But it was pretty much assumed that the other SPARTAN who carried that rating was S-117. [/quote] That possibility ruled out when it turned out Spartan-117 was neither the best, nor the most effective Spartan-II.[/quote] No it didn't. The other Spartans were usually really good in one thing and average in others, like Linda with Sniping, Kelly is fast and I think Fred was CQB. MC is an all rounder.[/quote] Master Chief was not an all rounder. He was a leader. He was great in a team leader role, average at everything else like other Spartans. Average, to a spartan, is pretty damn good compared to a marine. In reply to Revan, "Those she would have picked" Outright states "Spartan 2 genes." Halsey WOULD NOT HAVE PICKED any children who didn't match her STRICT AS HELL genetic requirements. So yes, that line does prove Spartan III's did get candidates with the S2 gene requirements. The way the S3 children were picked sounds like this (most likely theory.) First, select all children with S2 gene requirements. Second, start filling in the rest with children who have the higher 'quality' genes that can now work with the augmentations, not quite S2, but definitely not average person. If the S3's used 'crappier/more normal genes' then beta company would have had 1000 members, instead of the 300 so it did.

Jorge had been trained to work as part of a team, and had functioned within Noble for years. Six had worked as a lone wolf for many years prior to Reach. This alone says to me Six made more sense to survive than Jorge, as Six was all round more prepared to work and survive alone.

if jorge is so much better the bomb woudnt have been damaged

[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] DecepticonCobra [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Wazooty So yeah, he was the best.[/quote] He was the best, the best at getting ambushed.[/quote] No silly, He was the best at getting ambushed and LIVING, whereas every other spartan, marine.. or any other generic people of the UNSC, did not live for the most part.

Jorge's character isn't as much interesting as noble 6, It would have ruined the game experience if noble 6 died.