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1/25/2011 7:42:35 PM
210
Haven't we already been through this?
From the new rules:
[quote]Do not discuss unauthorized modification of console game hardware or software, even if you're not trying to cheat or pirate.[/quote]
In my philosophy of law class yesterday, we discussed why exactly laws are so complicated. Everyone interprets them differently, and their meanings change over time.
But why does this rule have to be so vague? What's the goal of the rule? To prevent people using Bungie.net to find out how to cheat? To prevent people from using this site to find out how to mod their 360? To stop all discussion on modifications?
If it's to prevent cheating, why not just combing this rule with the rule about cheating? "Detailing methods of cheating, including console modifications is not allowed".
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos No, I'm arguing that the legal definition of authorize isn't relevant. You are the one that is attempting to confuse the issue by applying a overly simplified legal definition. [/quote] I think you're just using the wrong word. Why not use "unapproved"?
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos No, I'm arguing that the legal definition of authorize isn't relevant. You are the one that is attempting to confuse the issue by applying a overly simplified legal definition.[/quote]This isn't overly simplified, nor is it a "legal definition" (as if that would make it any less relevant). [quote]Authorize To authorize a thing. -To set up as authoritative; to acknowledge as possessing final decisiveness -To give legal force to; to make legally valid. -To vouch for the truth or reality of; to confirm by one's authority. [OED2][/quote] Authorise, by its very meaning, implies authority, legal or otherwise. That authority is non-existant in all cases the rule applies to. That authority lies solely with the end user. You are implementing the rule in the hope that your audience will take it to mean something it actually doesn't, knowing full well this is the case. What's the point of rewriting the rules for clarity when you're leaving such nonsense as this in? [Edited on 01.25.2011 12:57 PM PST]
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No, I'm arguing that the legal definition of authorize isn't relevant. You are the one that is attempting to confuse the issue by applying a overly simplified legal definition. The reason the word is in there is precisely because of things that a hardware or software creator may decide is okay to allow. For example, Microsoft seems not to mind interesting Kinect hacks as long as they're hooked up to a PC, so cool. But they do mind you altering your Xbox console to hook up a non-standard hard drive, even if you just want more space. The legal ramifications about such a distinction are irrelevant to me and pretty much everyone else for the purposes of forum rules. Except for you and a few other people who like nitpicking things like this for what I can only guess is an intellectual exercise, the rule as it stands is very clear - if (for example) Microsoft says they don't want you modifying their console in that way, it probably isn't cool for you to talk about it here. The punishment for doing this is pretty minor (lock and a warning, in most cases). But this rule isn't going to change. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] elmicker Are you really trying to argue that because people don't really understand the word, the word should be included? Surely, the logic should be because people don't really understand the word, the word [i]shouldn't[/i] be included, as leaving out the word actually delivers exactly what you want anyway? You're making no sense here. Talking about "authorisation" just confuses the issue. You clearly don't want to talk about what authorisation actually means, you clearly don't care and you clearly [i]want[/i] to ban all modification talk. Leaving the word in there, coupled with the actual meaning of the word and events such as MS's [url=http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/01/windows-phone-7-jailbreakers/]tacit[/url] [url=http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/11/open-kinect/]authorisation[/url] of the modification of their products just leaves the rule meaning absolutely nothing. [/quote]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] elmicker [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RighteousTyrant Though it pains me to side with authority here, I think the term "authorization" could be interpreted (broadly) to mean what Microsoft does and does not allow on their Xbox LIVE network (which is very relevant to B.net for obvious reasons), and thus the point made in the rules is a valid one. [/quote]So what you're saying is that instead of taking the actual meaning of the word, we should take a game- and publisher-specific interpretation that doesn't even make a lot of sense?[/quote]First, I'm saying "could", not "should". And second, I'm saying that adding in some context helps it make more sense. Obviously it isn't perfect.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos Semantics. I don't really care what "right" they have to authorize things. This is a policy document, not a legal one. The context matters. And besides, most people don't understand all the nuances of law in this area (especially considering how different it is when you cross international boundaries), so talking about the legal definition of "authorize" is silly. [/quote] Why use the word "authorize" at all, then? Like I asked in my OP, what's the end goal of this rule? If you already know that most people don't understand "nuances", then why include them in your rules?
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Are you really trying to argue that because people don't really understand the word, the word should be included? Surely, the logic should be because people don't really understand the word, the word [i]shouldn't[/i] be included, as leaving out the word actually delivers exactly what you want anyway? You're making no sense here. Talking about "authorisation" just confuses the issue. You clearly don't want to talk about what authorisation actually means, you clearly don't care and you clearly [i]want[/i] to ban all modification talk. Leaving the word in there, coupled with the actual meaning of the word and events such as MS's [url=http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/01/windows-phone-7-jailbreakers/]tacit[/url] [url=http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/11/open-kinect/]authorisation[/url] of the modification of their products just leaves the rule meaning absolutely nothing. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ArchAssain So basically obey the rules here (because that where you are) and be nice. Or don't obey and be punished is the bottom line and who care about what terminology it is explained in? I like it![/quote]What on earth are you talking about? The issue here is that the rule [i]actually[/i] means the complete opposite of what is intended. Someone with a proper knowledge of their rights as a consumer could, in theory, follow the rules and fall foul of their intent. The whole point of the rewrite was clarity. [Edited on 01.25.2011 12:31 PM PST]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos Semantics. I don't really care what "right" they have to authorize things. This is a policy document, not a legal one. The context matters. And besides, most people don't understand all the nuances of law in this area (especially considering how different it is when you cross international boundaries), so talking about the legal definition of "authorize" is silly. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] elmicker They're opposed by the creator, as i said, they have no right to "authorise" anything. Once they've flogged a product to you, it's yours. You may not wish to get into a debate about the philosophy of this particular issue, but by putting things in terms of "authorisation", you've brought it up. If you don't want people to talk about mods of any type, say that. Don't predicate it with what you clearly consider to be fluff.[/quote][/quote] So basically obey the rules here (because that where you are) and be nice. Or don't obey and be punished is the bottom line and who care about what terminology it is explained in? I like it! [Edited on 01.25.2011 12:29 PM PST]
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What about Kinect hacking? Which I think Microsoft approves because of what someone said in an interview. [quote]Well well, MS looks to be taking a favorable stance towards Kinect hacks. Speaking to Forbes, a product manager claimed that it's pretty 'cool' to see what the community is doing with regards to Kinect hacks. So there you have it Kinect hackers, MS is indirectly giving you the seal of approval. Go do 'em proud! also Curious to see what Minesweeper, FreeCell and some of your other favorite Windows games would be like if they were controlled using only your ghastly human form? Good news -- when asked by the BBC whether Kinect functionality would soon come to Windows-based computers, CEO Steve Ballmer explained that Microsoft "will support that in a formal way in the right time."Given the peripheral's sales success and the overflowing passion of the modding community (already using Kinect with PCs), we'd say the right time is "now." We're fine if Microsoft wants to take its sweet time, though -- we're not sure we're ready for our Kinect to watch us while we work, anyways. It can be so judgmental![/quote] Source: [url=http://www.maxconsole.net/content.php?44080-Ballmer-We-expected-Kinect-to-be-hacked-but-not-that-quick! ]Here[/url]
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Semantics. I don't really care what "right" they have to authorize things. This is a policy document, not a legal one. The context matters. And besides, most people don't understand all the nuances of law in this area (especially considering how different it is when you cross international boundaries), so talking about the legal definition of "authorize" is silly. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] elmicker They're opposed by the creator, as i said, they have no right to "authorise" anything. Once they've flogged a product to you, it's yours. You may not wish to get into a debate about the philosophy of this particular issue, but by putting things in terms of "authorisation", you've brought it up. If you don't want people to talk about mods of any type, say that. Don't predicate it with what you clearly consider to be fluff.[/quote]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] RighteousTyrant Though it pains me to side with authority here, I think the term "authorization" could be interpreted (broadly) to mean what Microsoft does and does not allow on their Xbox LIVE network (which is very relevant to B.net for obvious reasons), and thus the point made in the rules is a valid one. [/quote]So what you're saying is that instead of taking the actual meaning of the word, we should take a game- and publisher-specific interpretation that doesn't even make a lot of sense?
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] elmicker [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos They are unauthorized by the both creator of the hardware and the software.[/quote]They're opposed by the creator, as i said, they have no right to "authorise" anything. Once they've flogged a product to you, it's yours. You may not wish to get into a debate about the philosophy of this particular issue, but by putting things in terms of "authorisation", you've brought it up. If you don't want people to talk about mods of any type, say that. Don't predicate it with what you clearly consider to be fluff.[/quote]Though it pains me to side with authority here, I think the term "authorization" could be interpreted (broadly) to mean what Microsoft does and does not allow on their Xbox LIVE network (which is very relevant to B.net for obvious reasons), and thus the point made in the rules is a valid one.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maimum FEAR [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] elmicker [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maimum FEAR Fair enough, the modding of your personal console isn't unauthorised. But to effectively get the point of that rule across to the general population that word probably needs to be present.[/quote]This would be wonderful, if it weren't for the fact that inclusion of that particular word completely changes the meaning of the rule. "Please do not discuss software or hardware modifications" and "Please do not discuss unauthorised software or hardware modifications" are, to all intents and purposes, complete polar opposites.[/quote] At the end of the day though, we all know what it's talking about and thus what we are not allowed to talk about.[/quote]If "we" did, this thread wouldn't be here.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maimum FEAR [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] elmicker [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maimum FEAR Fair enough, the modding of your personal console isn't unauthorised. But to effectively get the point of that rule across to the general population that word probably needs to be present.[/quote]This would be wonderful, if it weren't for the fact that inclusion of that particular word completely changes the meaning of the rule. "Please do not discuss software or hardware modifications" and "Please do not discuss unauthorised software or hardware modifications" are, to all intents and purposes, complete polar opposites.[/quote] At the end of the day though, we all know what it's talking about and thus what we are not allowed to talk about.[/quote] We do?
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos They are unauthorized by the both creator of the hardware and the software. That isn't a claim about enforcement or law in the "real world". However, just like political and religious discussion, we've elected to not talk about such things here. The forum rules aren't about "legal" and "illegal" - they are about what Bungie has chosen as its policies for this forum. I don't care what you are doing on your own time, nor am I interested in a philosophical argument about this topic. Bungie.net's public forums are simply not going to be the place to discuss this. I imagine the private groups can help you here, as well as numerous sites on the internet dedicated to such topics. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] elmicker In fact, there's really not much that can be described as "unauthorised"; almost all rights lie with the end user[/quote][/quote] Then why isn't the rule "No discussion of console modification"? "Unauthorized" seems like the wrong word here. Console manufacturers can't "authorize" a modification.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ArchAssain [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] HeyBlade789 To stop people discussing modded xbox's.[/quote] OK. But plenty of mods are perfectly fine. If I spray painted a design onto the faceplate, that's a modification. [/quote] If you leave a law open you have the chance to over inturperate it and obey it in any way you think plausible. Its common sense you can mod a xbox design. That is not what this rule of bungie is saying. They promote cool stuff like that especially if it is Bungie based arts. Simply You are not allowed to promote, talk of or question anything to do with cheating, game play modification or hacking. Keep it out of your topics and post. That is all they are asking. Make your own website if you want to be found guilty of Hacking, stealing and or cheating. [/quote] Note the part of the rule that says " even if you're not trying to cheat or pirate." [/quote] That falls into place when some members will say: "but but I wasn't trying to." *crys* That was my interpretation. No exceptions no excuses, if you get caught you get punished plain and simple. It is up to your common sense and logic to determine what is and isn't acceptable within regards to modding the internal or external hardware or software of your xbox. Or anything to do with your account and or other player's accounts.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Achronos They are unauthorized by the both creator of the hardware and the software.[/quote]They're opposed by the creator, as i said, they have no right to "authorise" anything. Once they've flogged a product to you, it's yours. You may not wish to get into a debate about the philosophy of this particular issue, but by putting things in terms of "authorisation", you've brought it up. If you don't want people to talk about mods of any type, say that. Don't predicate it with what you clearly consider to be fluff.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] elmicker [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maimum FEAR Fair enough, the modding of your personal console isn't unauthorised. But to effectively get the point of that rule across to the general population that word probably needs to be present.[/quote]This would be wonderful, if it weren't for the fact that inclusion of that particular word completely changes the meaning of the rule. "Please do not discuss software or hardware modifications" and "Please do not discuss unauthorised software or hardware modifications" are, to all intents and purposes, complete polar opposites.[/quote] At the end of the day though, we all know what it's talking about and thus what we are not allowed to talk about.
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[quote][b]Do not discuss unauthorized modification of console game hardware or software[/b], even if you're not trying to cheat or pirate.[/quote] I bolded the main gist of the rule. Spray painting a design on your Xbox isn't an unauthorized modification of console game hardware or software. Hell, if it was, I would've been banned on Xbox Live for spray painting my XBox pink with Robot Unicorn Attack on there. Metal Edition of course.
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They are unauthorized by the both creator of the hardware and the software. That isn't a claim about enforcement or law in the "real world". However, just like political and religious discussion, we've elected to not talk about such things here. The forum rules aren't about "legal" and "illegal" - they are about what Bungie has chosen as its policies for this forum. I don't care what you are doing on your own time, nor am I interested in a philosophical argument about this topic. Bungie.net's public forums are simply not going to be the place to discuss this. I imagine the private groups can help you here, as well as numerous sites on the internet dedicated to such topics. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] elmicker In fact, there's really not much that can be described as "unauthorised"; almost all rights lie with the end user[/quote]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maimum FEAR Fair enough, the modding of your personal console isn't unauthorised. But to effectively get the point of that rule across to the general population that word probably needs to be present.[/quote]This would be wonderful, if it weren't for the fact that inclusion of that particular word completely changes the meaning of the rule. "Please do not discuss software or hardware modifications" and "Please do not discuss unauthorised software or hardware modifications" are, to all intents and purposes, complete polar opposites.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] elmicker [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maimum FEAR To be fair the rule isn't really vague. Don't make threads discussing modding consoles.[/quote]You're right, the rule isn't at all vague. It just doesn't mean what you, nor, apparently, the author think it means.[/quote] Fair enough, the modding of your personal console isn't unauthorised. But to effectively get the point of that rule across to the general population that word probably needs to be present.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] ArchAssain [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] coolmike699 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] HeyBlade789 To stop people discussing modded xbox's.[/quote] OK. But plenty of mods are perfectly fine. If I spray painted a design onto the faceplate, that's a modification. [/quote] If you leave a law open you have the chance to over inturperate it and obey it in any way you think plausible. Its common sense you can mod a xbox design. That is not what this rule of bungie is saying. They promote cool stuff like that especially if it is Bungie based arts. Simply You are not allowed to promote, talk of or question anything to do with cheating, game play modification or hacking. Keep it out of your topics and post. That is all they are asking. Make your own website if you want to be found guilty of Hacking, stealing and or cheating. [/quote] Note the part of the rule that says " even if you're not trying to cheat or pirate."
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I would give a well thought out response but I'm much too busy splitting these hairs.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] superduper66 I think you showing off your cool Xbox paint-job isn't going to get you banned. Use our head, silly.[/quote] Also remember the forum rules are pretty general, Ninjas don't follow them to every mintues detail, they can use their discretion
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Maimum FEAR To be fair the rule isn't really vague. Don't make threads discussing modding consoles.[/quote]You're right, the rule isn't at all vague. It just doesn't mean what you, nor, apparently, the author think it means. [Edited on 01.25.2011 11:57 AM PST]
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I think you showing off your cool Xbox paint-job isn't going to get you banned. Use our head, silly.
