I have seen too many stray thoughts in this in the Lore topic so I thought I would give my thoughts. (Wall of text warning) Through 3 points, may I convince you from a lore standpoint why Oryx was not a Disciple. 1. No Glaive, no Disciple- Oryx did not have a glaive, something every Disciple has had thus far. (Except Calus, but lets face it he really wasn’t a Disciple). By the rite of the Sword Logic Oryx would not have had one. The Sword Logic dictates you take what you want to gain power, never accept a gift. (Hence why the worms eat at the Hive. They were given to the Krill.) Oryx was too fanatical to the Deep and its Logic to have taken one. May I further point to the fact that he told Crota he would give him nothing except his first sword. He followed the Sword Logic to all the I’s and T’s. 2. Oryx’s devotion was to the Deep and the Deep alone- Oryx says this numerous times over. Even in his discourse about how he “will make sure” he will be eternal, he says he will fall to something that loves what he loves: the Deep, a power and principle. Something devoted to the Sword Logic. Now, I am not here to take the argument that we proved him right or wrong, but I want to point to his devotion- fanaticism -to the Darkness. The Deep says that Oryx was “his man” in Unveiling as well. If then, Oryx was so devoted to the Deep and was the Deep’s man, then why would he follow someone who’s goal is *not* what the Deep’s is? The Deep wants a universe full of strong life that deserves to live and to keep proving that point- The Final Shape. The Witness’ goal is not this. Its Final Shape is the end of all things. Not the same. 3. Oryx arguably was in par with the Witness in power- I must address a question that I am predicting will be asked—“how in the world did we beat him then?” Well, I must point to the fact that we A) killed nearly all of his tribute, thanks to killing Crota, his main source, and then his court. And B) Out of hubris he was eating/messing with Light, something that would weaken him. C) His worm was eating at him already. He was not following his nature and his tribute was running dry. Now that that is out of the way, he probably was on oar with the Witness. He communed with the Deep, that primordial force, itself and received power from it. He killed a Worm-god. He must have had a loooot of power to do so. Also, he even says when he uses a verse from the Tablets of Ruin, he makes himself vulnerable but says that he as powerful or more powerful than the Worm his god. The power to Take is a very high power, thus making me believe he was on par with the Witness. So then, why was working with the Witness during the collapse? Why did Savi and Xivu have glaives? I believe he was working with the Witness during the Collapse so he could hunt the Traveler down. In his letter to Crota, he said he would not pass his oath to kill the Traveler to him. This makes me think that the only reason he worked with the Witness is to find the Traveler. To eventually find a way to kill it. Eventually, I believe he would turn in the Witness and say, “Listen, I have stood with you long enough. Prove to me by the Logic of the Deep, whose power you use, that you deserve to live in this fettered existence.” As for Savi and Xivu, lets face it, the only reason they would join the Witness is because they for sure were not as devoted to the Deep as Oryx. Savi toon the glaive because she saw an opportunity and used her cunning, thus feeding her worm. Xivu saw it most likely as an opportunity for war, which truly was the only thing she cared about. How she writes in the Books of Sorrow makes me feel as if she cared not for the Deep and found Oryx’s extreme devotion to it as odd. Thank you for your time. Please feel free to correct me or open a discourse on a few points.