Really good work all for nothing. Bungie cares zero about PVP and balancing it. The Elitest will just tell you to “get gud”. Appreciate the work tho!

Given freelance is on again this weekend, I decided to see what lobby balancing was like a 2nd time around. Results below, same format as before - chance of winning %, outcome, score. Game 1 - 6%, Loss, 0-5 Game 2 - 46%, Loss, 3-5. Fairly close game. Game 3 - Rounds could have gone either way. Game 4 - 15%, Loss, 2-5 Game 5 - 5%, Loss, 1-5 Game 6 - 16%, Loss, 1-5 Game 7 - 61%, Win, 5-1 Game 8 - 34%, Loss, 1-5 Game 9 - 9%, Win, 5-3 - win went against % chance. The team played well, covering angles and team shooting Game 10 - 74%, Win, 5-1 Game 11 - 16%, Loss, 0-5 - mercy game Game 12 - 82%, Win, 5-3 Game 13 - 65%, Win, 5-0 Game 14 - 0%, Loss, 0-5 - first time I've seen 0% and it was felt. Game 15 - 5%, Loss, 0-5 - 1 player on losing side wasn't moving for 3 rounds. Game 16 - 47%, Win, 5-3 - win went against % chance but was fairly even teams Game 17 - 60%, Loss, 4-5 - win went against % chance but again for fairly even teams. The winning team absolutely deserved it. They played well. Game 18 - 1%, Loss, 0-5 I stopped at that point as I could not take much more. There's only so many crushing losses, where you don't have a fighting chance, you can take in one sitting lol Summarised my wish list for matchmaking below: - Improved lobby balancing (player skill distribution) across all pvp modes. I think anywhere between a 40% to 60% of winning would be fairer, whilst still providing enough of a challenge to both teams and avoiding absolute blowouts. Give people an actual fighting chance - FBMM to be introduced to all pvp modes. This is necessary if Bungie intends to remove freelance modes - If both the above are introduced properly and work (it's a big if), there's no need to keep the freelance nodes, they can be removed to stop splitting the player population - Finally and for the avoidance of any doubt, i DO NOT think SBMM should be introduced into Trials as it would be even more detrimental to the game mode and likely kill it off completely. For those of you playing Trials this weekend, freelance or normal, I hope matchmaking is kind to you!

the first 7 parts brought me to the lighthouse, the next 20 were frustrating, you are not alone! courage

This is really great info. Basically says for the most part, matches are determined prior to starting more so then we realize. Yet bungie knows this but forces those in the 7% chance of winning to stay. If people realized you’re chances are preset maybe they wouldn’t complain so much when their teammates leave. For the most part, it doesn’t seem to make a difference. Would suck though if you’re on game 7 and you’re teammate left after a bad first round. This shows that it’s okay to have good and bad players play each other but making it a 50-50 chance makes us feel more in control and not defeated from the very start

OP: good stuff! GG FWIW: It felt like i'd played about 100+ matches across H/W/T until I maxed the pinnacle, and, my W/L rate was approx. 1 W per 20 Ls - least, that what it felt like. In the end, I maxed the Mercy Card, played a few more rounds just to max the few close bounties left, then switch to another character to start again, or, ENDEX. As it happened, I also reset my Trials Rank, too...but a lot of that was on holdover from previous events. Being a Senior Member of the 0.3% Tortoise Brigade, my mission was just to do bounties and get that rank 16 machine gun - sorted! What I experienced during all that gameplay, was just how absolutely astonishing were the movement speed of so many other enemy players / teams, as they often just appeared out of nowhere, and I was dead before I knew it?! Another noticeable thing was just how super powerful were the weapons and abilities and armour protection they had, versus my weapons that seemed to fire party streamers and popcorn, and my armour felt like tissue wrap?? I had one or two memorable moments but mostly, I was canon fodder. And getting those 7 wins on that card was a real grind for me...heigh ho! Anyhoo, I'm done with Freelance Trials - at least, until some other Trials weapon that I don't have actually appears. End of report. Ease springs. Play fair and play nice. Cheers!

I have a lot of respect for you. GG and good info for solo players.

I’ve suspected that Bungie’s lobby “balancing” was based on a 50% win/loss ratio and I hate it. It’s super frustrating to be on a roll where I’m playing great then I get matched against a couple of sweats that roll my team. I’m sure Bungie’s goal is to hopefully not discourage lower skill players with constant losses but it’s doing the opposite for me. I stop playing altogether after a few games to avoid getting farmed in the next games. If this is true, it is the opposite of balance.

I grinded some last minute Trials to get the reset and some more easy rank ups to focus Inquisitors, and I either Stomped them until they quit, Carried teammates that struggled, clutched close games, or got utterly destroyed. Overall, when the matches were CLOSE, I won the majority but there were some games where a mistimed super or grenade would made all the difference. The largest portions of my losses were when none of us played off of each other. We weren't holding down the strong angles and picking fights in bad areas with little to no cover. The worst was when both of my teammates would go on flanks in opposite directions, and would wait until the other died before trying to 1v3. Throughout all of it, the worst was playing with Little Guardian Timmy and Danny Dayjobs. If they were on my team, they very much sat behind me and tried to do their best to glue themselves to my cheeks (much to my dismay). If they were against me, well I enjoy a good Osmiomancy triple-kill. I'm torn because I do think that for the competitive modes like Ranked and Trials it SHOULD be focused on your Rank and Card wins respectively, but relying on luck of the draw really can be a pain, and I have to confess it's only once every other freelance weekend can I solo my way to flawless (Go figure it's the weeks with the crappy adept reward...). I'm glad to see it wasn't just me going through the motions alone, but I do hope this is something Bungie approaches with a tempered reaction. Who am I kidding, they'll yank the freelance playlist, then say "Look! So many more people are playing!" I am disappointed that bungie not only BS's their numbers that way, but that they think everyone is too stupid to see it, like when they launched on Epic and said that everyone LOVED the season so much they started playing again. Oh and because I like to be honest, I will say that I don't RECALL any 0-5 matches (mostly because I clutch on power round, people play very predictably there), there were some games that were basically blowouts, and even a few where I bottom scored.

I'm not even a pvp player and yet I found this interesting. Well presented post by the way 🙂👍

[quote]Now from the outset, I'm not a pvp god. I'd say I'm about average at best. I picked D2 back up again at the end of season of the splicer and have been flawless at least once per season since then, mainly on freelance weekends. I have my good days and bad days but I mainly I play pvp to have fun, try out different builds and to see just how bad my hand eye co-ordination has gotten since my glory days in pvp in Halo 2/3 when I would class myself as a bit of a sweat/try hard. I'm too old for that now. It's a young persons game, but I can still pull off a clutch 1v3 every now and again. I dont expect anything, nor do I think I'm entitled to anything just because i play the game. If you want to go to the lighthouse, put in the time and effort to improve your own gameplay, learn from others, form a team, and practice. I'm just getting that out the way to try and avoid some of the inevitable responses this is going to get, but lets be honest they are gonna come! Anyway, I know D2 pvp matchmaking has a number of issues, regardless of where you fall within the skill bracket. I also know that trying to find a balance that all players will be satisfied with is increeibly unlikely. This isnt a post to argue about the pro's and con's of SBMM, FBMM or CBMM - they all have benfits and disadvantages - but its more of a plea for Bungie to introduce better lobby balancing into matchmaking as well as shedding some light on how lobby balancing currently works as it feels like there isnt any...its just luck of the draw! It would be even better to get some info on what plans (if any) they have to continually evolve matchmaking in the same vein as they have done with the introduction of SBMM and FBMM. Lobby balancing (or at least the apparent lack of it) is the one thing that frustrates me the most about D2 matchmaking, whether that's in Quickplay, Iron Banner, or Freelance Trials. I'm excluding normal Trials on the basis that if you go into Trials solo, during non freelance weekends, you should 100% know what you're getting yourself into. I decided to play 50 games of freelance trials over the weekend to see what the lobby balancing was like. I went with freelance as it doesnt have SBMM/FBMM and is driven by number of wins on the card so was an ideal place to see how lobbies were matched together withoit being skewed by other matchmaking rules. I wasn't playing that well overall, both from a decision making and shot accrucacy perspective so my Trials stats have taken a pounding. Regardless, the data is interesting and in my view does add weight to the argument that lobby balancing, or at least better lobby balancing is needed. Summary Games played - 50 Win % - 50% - coincidence or not? I'll let you decide but I didn't want to walk past it as I know there are many that hold the view that there is a forced 50% win/loss ratio. In only 3 games did the match go against the chance of winning % quoted on Destiny Tracker, further evidencing that a match outcome is decided before a shot is even fired or other factors (player quitting/disconnecting) play a part in the games outcome. In only 9 games, was the chance of winning % within 10% of a 50/50 outcome (i.e. 50% chance of winning). These felt like close games, even where the scores dont reflect it - you can still have a close game and win 5 - 0. In the remaining 41 games, chance of winning % was either >60% at the lower end, and up to >90% at the very extreme, for the winning team. Looking at the make up of each team it was clear lobby balancing issues are the driver. In all these games one team was heavily stacked vs the other (e.g. you'd have a Gold ELO player paired with 2 Bronze ELO players vs 2 x Platinum and Diamond players). Whilst the collectively lower ranked team might pick up the occassional round, the games weren't anywhere near close. I know ELO is not the official rating and it has its disadvantages, but in the absence of anything official its the best thing we've got to work with. Whilst the introduction of FBMM in 6v6 game modes is a positive (it negates the player population split created by a freelance node, and goes someway to avoid solos vs stacked teams) the only way to fully removed freelance nodes is to implement appropriate lobby balancing to compliment it. As a side note, I didn't encounter that many card resetters either, 3 at most that I could accurately identify. There's no point getting annoyed or frustrated by these players as nothing prevents them from doing it, nor are the benefits of playing in the flawless pool good enough to encourage them not to do it. I also didn't experience any lag / connection issues. I've also outlined the outcome of each game detailing the Chance of winning % (based on destiny tracker), match outcome (win or loss) and game score below in case anyone is interested as I suspect my experience will be similar for others also. Game 1: 44%, Loss, 4 - 5 Game 2: 22%, Loss, 2 - 5 Game 3: 7%, Loss, 3 - 5 Game 4: 74%, Win, 5 - 0 Game 5: 47%, Loss, 3 - 5 Game 6: 97%, Win, 5 - 0 Game 7: 74%, Win, 5 - 1 Game 8: 57%, Win, 5 - 3 Game 9: 78%, Win, 5 - 2 Game 10: 32%, Loss, 2 - 5 Game 11: 75%, Win, 5 - 2 Game 12: 90%, Win, 5 - 1 Game 13: 17%, Loss, 0 - 5. Fell at the gates of the lighthouse, unsurprisingly given the odds, but we were up against an incredbly good player who was just better than everyone else in the lobby by some.margin so no complaints. Game 14: 29%, Loss, 0 - 5 Game 15: 52%, Win, 5 - 4 Game 16: 39%, Win, 5 - 3. One of the 3 games where outcome went against chance of winning % Game 17: 32%, Loss, 0 - 5 Game 18: 89%, Win, 5 - 3 Game 19: 84%, Win, 5 - 1 Game 20: 52%, Loss, 2 - 5. Score doesn't reflect it, but this was a really close, fun game with momentum shifting throughout the rounds Game 21: 79%, Win, 5 - 4 Game 22: 94%, Win, 5 - 0 Game 23: 26%, Loss, 3 - 5 Game 24: 23%, Loss, 3 - 5 Game 25: 75%, Loss, 3 - 5. The high ELO player Diamond ranked) driving up the win % chance left after round 1, meaning it was 2 v 3 for the remainder of the match. Game 26: 73%, Win, 2 - 0. Oppostion team quit Game 27: 75%, Win, 5 - 0 Game 28: 13%, Loss, 1 - 5 Game 29: 22%, Loss, 3 - 5 Game 30: 63%, Win, 5 - 4 Game 31: 65%, Win, 5 - 1 Game 32: 9%, Loss, 0 - 5. Got absolutely stomped on this one. Game 33: 52%, Win, 5 - 1 Game 34: 12%, Loss, 0 - 5 Game 35: 64%, Win, 5 - 2 Game 36: 39%, Loss, 3 - 5 Game 37: 3%, Loss, 3 - 5. Game 38: 40%, Loss, 0 - 5. Game 39: 97%, Win, 5 - 1 Game 40: 23%, Win, 5 - 3. Found a team in freelance who communciated! One of the other games that went against chance of winning %. Communciation is key! Game 41: 63%, Win, 5 - 2 Game 42: 25%, Loss, 2 - 5 Game 43: 24%, Loss , 1 - 5 Game 44: 74%, Win, 5 - 1 Game 45: 28%, Loss, 2 - 5 Game 46: 53%, Win, 5 - 3 Game 47: 7%, Loss, 1 - 5 Game 48: 84%, Win, 5 - 0 Game 49: 27%, Loss, 1 - 5 Game 50: 1%, Loss, 2 - 5. What a great way to finish 50 games.....I'm surprised we even won 2 rounds on this one.[/quote] This a incredible insight into the lobby balance of the game. Some of these games should just never happen. I remember many freelance weekends where I would have games that felt like they were decided before the first gun fight even happened. I myself am a below average player, with the one day out of 30+ where I have takeover potential. I know unfortunately there is no easy solution to fix a game mode like trials in terms of the balance, loot, etc.

I once looked into 12 of my Freelance Trials matches on Destiny Tracker. 7 of them had the opposition at +90% chance of winning. 5 of those 7 were 98%, 99% and even 100%. Those matches played exactly as you would expect! This led me to believe that Freelance Trials divides lobbies randomly and that there is no attempt to balance the teams. If you’re a top tier player (one who is capable of regularly carrying a team) you improve your chances by guaranteeing one top tier player on your team (yourself). Everything else is at the mercy of random lobby division. My experience of Freelance Trials is that it’s a lottery, rather than a competitive experience. I thoroughly enjoyed the Elimination playlist (which didn’t have a Freelance option, but did have lobby balancing). I can’t bear Freelance Trials. It’s odd that a competitive solo player, whose favourite mode is Elimination, has zero interest in playing it. [spoiler]Great post by the way. Fair and balanced opinions with data to back them up. 👍[/spoiler]

Skill issue

Mate I played solid reseted about 50 cards easy died 200 times my kills cuz jumping of map cuz dead game but I managed light house in freelance it can be dne with some raging but

freelance flawless is hard but possible; i got my exalted adept 🥳

Basically the lower your skill the lower your chances of winning the higher your skill the higher chances of winning you are your own lobby balancing. Sometimes I win sometimes I lose it is what it is. We all face good teams and bad teams , some more than others which is again base on your own skill level.

great perspective with fine data! I wish bungie was more transparent with MMR

you did all that and i could have told you pvp has been trash for about a year, and according to the recent blog it will stay that way. rip destiny pvp.

untill they ban cetain guns and ppl start with full super abilitiys , and all ammo it will just beating ppl cheating, this is why aim bots are used , to fix the game

This weekend was my first freelance trials experience playing 29 games with 28 of them having the enemy team as favourites (I think their chances of winning would average out at around 80%) My team won the game we were expected to win and managed to upset the odds on three other occasions. I did notice that often the top second and forth highest ELO ranked players would be the make up of the enemy team. Ironically the one time I got teamed with a 2000+ player he must have been doing some random experiment as he didn't fire his guns or use any abilities for the entire match doing 0 damage.

Strange I played 17 matches of freelance 15- Won 2- Lost 2 Flawless cards