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Edited by BeatThatBoss: 2/12/2023 11:56:19 AM
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Response to Kevin Yanes and Bungie on Strand Titan

To start, absolutely no hate to the devs here. Seriously, thank you to them for giving us so much info to complain about and my only point here is to give my personal perspective on the recent statements on the Strand Titan so that the future for my crayon eating brethren will hopefully be better. The two things to talk about are the GamesRadar interview question about the community feeling that Strand Titan is too similar to other Titan supers and kits and the Bungie twitter response to the backlash. Full quotes below. “Bladefury is much more about giving you the survivability tools to really lay into those guys and then giving you a range option, which is not something you generally do in these roaming Supers, to Suspend things from afar and damage them," he says. "That's their heavy attack, that double blade uppercut you see them do in the trailer. I think that's two of the core ways we've tried to shift them away. But yeah, Titan mains, we love you. We do. But remember that we try to reinforce your core fantasy. And at some point, your guy's holding the fist on the cover of the game." “We've been monitoring recent impressions around the new Strand Berserker Titan. The team understands the landscape of our Titan supers during development, and has made sure the Strand Titan offers new gameplay opportunities to make it feel fresh compared to previous subclasses“ Alright let’s start with the interview. First thing to talk about is in the first sentence: “Giving you the survivability tools to really lay into those guys”. Unfortunately, as a starting point to defend this class as being fresh and unique, this ain’t it chief. We can safely assume that this is referring to ‘Woven Mail’ and the sever keyword. We have versions of this on every class: Void has overshields and controlled demolition, which heals in an AoE whenever an enemy explodes; Arc has Spark of Resistance and an aspect that heals on melee kills; Solar has Restoration; and Stasis has two fragments that either give overshields or damage resistance when near stasis ice. As for sever, this type of keyword is almost universally, with some MMO exceptions, terrible. If I need to punch an enemy, I don’t want them to keep shooting me, I want them incapacitated immediately. I’m likely already damaged from having to leave cover to punch them, so unless the damage reduction is so significant that it’s borderline broken, this is not worth it. The best status effects are the ones that kill enemies faster because when they’re dead, they deal 0% damage. Or even blinding because at least they’re not damaging you. Now that I think about it, what content is a melee-based sever status effect for? Low-end content and enemies just die to the punch. High-end content and your dead after getting boss stomped when you tried to get close to inflict a status effect with a melee. Plus how long does sever last. Unless it’s indefinite, by the time you get away and pull out a gun, the debuff may already be gone. Okay next line, before I get sidetracked again: “…then giving you a range option, which is not something you generally do in these roaming Supers”. I mean c’mon, this clearly false. Hammers and sentinel shield both have long range attacks, without even mentioning other classes. And if the range is more in line with what I expect (a sort range burst) then we have Burning Maul and Glacial Quake. So that’s not new or unique either. Moving on, next thing is the infamous “reinforce your core fantasy” line. To be fair, according to Datto, this developer did say that this wasn’t the best quote and that interviews are hard. And you know what, fair enough. This quote sounds relatively tone-deaf and also like a “deal-with-it”mentality. But on a constructive note, I believe that if Bungie does believe that melee is the core fantasy of Titans, it may be time broaden that fantasy a bit. I think leaning into the defensive bulwark idea or the frontline soldier persona may be good places to go. Finally, the tweet states that their team “has made sure the Strand Titan offers new gameplay opportunities to make it feel fresh compared to previous subclasses”. Now, I genuinely hope this is true and maybe there’s some tricks up the sleeves of the Berserker. However, given the currently available information, I’ll have to see it to believe it. With all this being said, and dear god look how much I said, I hope that the communities reaction and subsequent press involvement will encourage Bungie to make some adjustments down the line, diversifying the play pattern and creatively tuning my favorite class: the Crayola-gobbling Titan.

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  • God I hate when they say "Titans are the melee class". That's great and all but melee just isn't a smart choice in harder content.

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  • I'm honestly tired of that dude Yanes. He says the most asinine things about titans then wants play victim after he gets called out. Now all he does is talk about metroid prime acting like he didn't look make himself look goofy again.

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  • I was just assuming that the person that comes up with Titan ideas is a big marvel fan. This round i would say goes to Wolverine. The uniqueness of this character is probably building up Recovery instead of Resilience. Look look a completely different play style. Truth of the matter is that I really want to play Titan but none of the exotics excite me as much as the warlock and hunter. That and I would also like some less bulky builds. However, this has been said many times so its another never gonna happen things.

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  • Edited by Sturm with no Drang: 2/12/2023 7:29:19 PM
    I’m just disappointed by what I’ve seen so far because there really wasn’t anything new and innovative regarding the subclass itself. On one hand, we’re not seeing the entire picture of what to truly expect out of the subclasses and their fragments/aspects, but judging just by the details given thus far, it comes off as a Striker reskin to me, and I’m a Hunter main for christ’s sake.

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  • Core fantasy is to deliver overwhelming firepower and be difficult to damage. Not ponce around swinging wildly with Gigan-kaiju arms. This is just lazy development.

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    • [quote]Keep your expectations low boy & you'll never be disappointed...-Kratos to Atreus[/quote]

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    • I 100% agree with the super. My idea was a one off super with a massive shockwave that deals an AoE around and a big, slow-moving severing blast. The current one feels too much like behemoth from what we’ve been shown. I do however think sever and suspend can be decent in endgame. Suspend is basically the same as freeze in PvE without the damage burst, but is easier to apply. Sever’s viability fully depends on how much it is and how long it lasts. I’d be willing to bet Sever will be stronger than the vast majority of resistance since it applies only to specific enemies.

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    • Edited by WinterSolstice: 2/12/2023 11:38:11 PM
      I think an even bigger issue is how when looking at it this subclass is going to play just like Stasis. You freeze a target you get close and thanks to stasis crystals you take less damage allowing you to try and punch your enemy and get out. Strand let's you suspend enemies get close weaken them and get out. It's just way too similar. Edit: So those "IT could be good you haven't tried it yet!" people don't start complaining about my comment I'm talking how it's literally going to play like Stasis on launch maybe the future seasonal aspects will change this but launch Strand is literally launch Stasis.

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    • This is why I like void and solar titan playstyle best (in pve) With void I can put down a rally barricade and from behind it shoot, throw grenades, and throw shields. With the right build I can use all 3 abilities in combination with my guns to make a fast powerful build that isn't about punching stuff with my fist. With solar I can play into the immortal titan that throws flaming hammers and charges directly into the enemy to burn them away. I get why people like arc titan (and it is really fun in strikes with the grenade recharge bonus) but its not really my favorite and stasis has a cool idea that suffers from being too slow and not enough killing power or survivability compared to void, imo. Strand doesn't look like it does anything better than anything else other than giving up grenade for better movement tech, which we will see how that plays out and if its worth it. The super really does look like its going to be another thing used to make orbs for the well lock in raids and backup for when you run out of heavy in everything else. Wish they would have been more creative with titan super, but it's way too late to change it now and our only hope is convincing bungie to start adding more supers to the darkness subclasses.

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      • Outriders made a bunch of successfully viable melee abilities but, at the same time, never forgot you were playing a shooter. All the classes can be tanky in some way, and had their own melee thing without needing to be the only tank available, the only brawler available.

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        • [quote]but yeah, titan mains, we love you[/quote] There’s a reason they have to say this to titans, but not hunters or warlocks.

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          • Edited by DuBChiri2: 2/13/2023 2:56:16 AM
            I bet the line where it offers "new gameplay opportunities" is based around how strand itself plays, not the actual subclass giving you tools to do something different with. Like behemoth. It could play around with the verbs of stasis...but it really didn't DO anything stasis outside of it's super until much later. I genuinely think if Berserker had the warlock solar grenade exotic but for their melee so they can infinitely spam it for a short time, would be so much cooler. Having 3 charges (which is worthless let's be real) with only fast regen is so boring. I want to go BERSERK, not use my melee every 15 seconds instead of 60.

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            • Interviews is hard…… hahaha wtf

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            • [quote] reinforce your core fantasy[/quote] You will want what we tell you to want and if you don't, you're wrong.

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              • You are correct. But people need to understand they make this stuff for patrol lords. They don’t actually considered true end game viability when designing new sub classes. Stasis is an endgame fail on everything except warlock and even Shadebinder is GMs only. They let us find the endgame meta which is partially why it’s so stale. Because they never tweak anything with it truly in mind

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                • No matter how they spin it, yet another roaming melee super for the Titan is just tone deaf. Even as a Hunter only player it is frustrating looking at Bungie’s logic. What about a one and done super where the Titan pulls a massive boulder made of strand energy from the ground and bowls it along the ground where it explodes on contact with an enemy, dealing massive damage, with a few strand verbs thrown in for good measure. Or if activated in midair, the Titan summons the boulder on their shoulders and hurls it at the enemy (for aerial targets). Sort of like a nova bomb, but with a more unique flavour with unique projectile physics. Sounds pretty Titan to me, and it doesn’t involve punching things. And it’s a one and done super that can be used from range, something Titans have never had. But recycling ideas and melee animations is easier I guess.

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                  • I don't listen to anything Bungie says. Here is the typical Bungie response format to negative community feedback: "Your opinion is wrong because this is how we were thinking when we designed feature X, so you need to feel like Y when you play it. We're the game devs, we know what we're doing, trust us." Really what they're doing is avoiding any real talk until the controversy dies down, people accept it, and just move on to the next pain point.

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                  • Edited by SirEman80: 2/12/2023 6:44:33 PM
                    To try and put this in a more succinct way (not that anything you said was wrong)… Titans look at the innovation and creativity put into the Warlock and Hunter Strand experience and understandably wonder ‘why is this innovation and creativity not put towards the Titan experience?’ That’s the disconnect that the comments in the articles and the social media response from Bungie do not address in a meaningful way. If Titans identity is the melee/close-up play style… all we are asking is that you give us innovative and creative ways to interact in that play space. Just give Titans the same creative time and effort you give Hunters and Warlocks.

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                    • Complete garbage take by Yanes. Just say you lack creativity and move on.

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                    • If you were there when stasis released, you should know that you can’t expect anything to be good. Within one or two weeks, Bungie will nerf everything that is not hunter. I’m a hunter main, so I’m not hating, just not baited by the usual power fantasy marketing BS than then just ends up like most rednit dates: a lot of hype, followed by a lot of disappointment. It’s hard to resist the catch, but I grew not to be a fish anymore, try to join the apes, that while jailed by my fate of being a die hard fan, I’ll throw poop at the zoo keeper if the food is bad, and watch what Bungie does after all the fishes are caught in the net. One day, I hope I’ll be able to say: Apes together strong! 🦍

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                      • Edited by Tru-Zrue: 2/21/2023 8:00:42 PM
                        Feels like they didn’t know exactly what to do with titans anymore when it comes to abilities and supers. I hope the new super is good, but titans should be more than a melee class. I wouldn’t have minded another defensive or protective super.

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                        • The super is just like behemoth. Long range tangle/freeze heavy attack, and lunge melee. It’s not new and fresh.

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                        • [quote]Strand Titan offers new gameplay opportunities to make it feel fresh compared to previous subclasses“ Alright let’s start with the interview. First thing to talk about is in the first sentence: “Giving you the survivability tools to really lay into those guys”. [/quote] Is that why you nerfed most of titans survivability? I can see it now, it will go flying in on adds and splat boss stands on you and laughs

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                        • I wish I could upvote this more than once. Ask Kevin if all this punching is going to be viable with new "enhanced difficulty" they have planned.

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                        • Calling it now, in response to the backlash they will hugely turn up the DR on strand Titan super if they didn’t already have this planned anyway and titans will feel like unkillable gods and it will be awesome…… For a few weeks until they have sold enough copies of light fall and announce “Titan super is performing better than expected so Nerf nerf nerf” and it goes in the bin with behemoth. Would anyone like a wager? I’ll give u odds!

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                          • If the slam attack could block incoming damage or any damage I’ll for sure use the super

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