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Destiny 2

Discuss all things Destiny 2.
Edited by Magiscene: 10/25/2022 12:20:33 PM
127

Player burnout, poor server quality, and heavy monetization are not good to the longevity of Destiny 2

Intro It’s time I as a vet player suffering from burnout says their piece on destiny 2 as a whole. People can tell me to go play another game, to take a break, or cheap all they wish but I just want to help a studio from ruining itself and if I deserve to be roasted then so be it. I’ll say my piece and what ever happens happens knowing I at least tried to help. Heavy monetization, questionable prices and business practices This year of destiny 2 has been a huge example of why I wanted a destiny 3, and how questionable Bungie has been. Making us pay for more and more for cosmetics, 10 dollars (sometimes 15) for a single exotic emote, 15 bucks for a set of armor and 45 for all three sets(more than a whole expansion) with these prices I would hope for cheaper expansions but nope. Moving onto expansion cost 40-50 dollars only to get one location, no pvp maps, one new subclass element that will only be good for 3-6 months before it’s nerfed into the ground, 2 strikes, and one raid oh and not too mention buggy as hell and 30 dollars worth of content that will be removed or missed if I don’t play even though I paid for it, is not worth it when compared to getting a full fledge game that has more content that I can play at anytime, polished, and I don’t have to worry about stuff being removed. I understand Bungie is a business but atleast be reasonable about the price difference between cosmetics and expansions. If you want me to pay 100 dollars for a deluxe edition of an expansion then I would hope for bugs to be caught and worked on with in the first few weeks of launch not seasons later like the duality bell issue remember that bug? The one that should have been fixed within the dungeons launch or even before launch. There to be more than just 3 locations to explore in the destination map. There to be more than 3+ gambit and crucible maps and 2 strikes and more than only a few exotics to chase. More than 4 encounters to a raid. And last and certainly most importantly don’t use content we already paid for for the seasonal content. This year of destiny 2 so far has been evidence enough that that is not changing anytime soon. Where is the money going? Why not the servers? Eververse has been shoved in our face so much that I would expect the servers to be healthy but when season 18 launched it is very clear that this game in its current state has poor servers even with the weekly server maintenance. The servers at this season’s launch had so much latency that our rewards weren’t even dropping on time, we couldn’t use apps to transfer items from character to character (which really ruined the day one raid experience even though it was launched on a Friday to prevent that experience). With how expensive the game has become I would hope for better servers but it appears even that is too much to ask for. I thought Sony acquiring Bungie would benefit the player base but apparently not as all we have gotten out of it is an increase in prices, destiny expansions taken off game pass, and a lack of transparency with the player base and waiting to last minute to reveal content. I thought weekly maintenance would help the servers too but I have seen no improvements at all. Neglected core playlists/burnout The mentality of only focusing on what makes you money and neglecting the free to play aspects and expanding the game is a very poor mentality to have for a live service game. Neglecting anything in a game as a service is not good because when that neglected aspect becomes stale people stop playing it due to being stale gameplay which leads to poor player numbers. since a live service game requires constant upkeep on ALL its aspects you need to stop neglecting the core playlists especially since you require us to play them to get loot from the seasonal content. This is burning out your playerbase. And for the gambit and crucible playlists we need more than just maps we need extra modes as well. I would love to play gambit with different ways to summon the primeval or even different primeval aspects like having it run away from the player. Do grandmaster strikes the way you did guardian game strikes. This way build crafting and skill is emphasized vs standing back at the map shooting champions. These changes in attitude towards the core playlists need to change soon not a year from now as your playerbase will slowly die off from burnout. Power Creep Power creep is another issue that is very prevalent in the game right now. The only way to get around this is as you introduce new perks to newer guns they need to be added to older weapons. Another way is have harder difficulty weapons drop better perk pools. For example raid weapons should drop better perk combos than strike perk combos. And stick to that dynamic. This type of power creep we have had lately needs to change as it has been disrespecting the grind we did in the past. Not as bad as sun setting but it’s still prevalent enough to warrant looking at and taking a step back from. An example I am talking about is the introduction of origin traits. We grinded the hell out of dates of eternity only to have to regrind the weapons again for origin traits and weapon patterns. Why can’t the weapons we already grinded for get origin traits automatically? This will lead to even more burnout. Addictive vs fun game loops Another aspect of having players regrind these activities leads to future activities becoming stale, not fun. Although it doesn’t matter because destiny 2 is designed to be addictive vs fun. This needs to change. One way is get rid of the fomo. Rotating weapons in and out of the loot pools would be a start. I know you want people to play the game but don’t rely on addiction. Try making something fun for a change only two things that were fun recently were the Rhulk damage phase and wellspring defend. In game inflation? Why? Inflation in the game is a problem as well. 100 shards to focus a weapon for a chance at a weapon to drop with the perks you want. 20 shards is more reasonable for a chance. Expecting the player to earn that many shards when shards are hard to come by is not right. I know you want people to play the game but it should be for the right reasons and respectful of players real life time as well. The game should not feel like a chore or second job. And with how long the grind is and how stingy the loot is it feels that way. For example doing a single strike for 4 -7 shards is not worth it. Cross play Requiring cross play is definitely a huge annoyance especially in pvp. PlayStation has higher latency. Dedicated servers is solution here. Champion spam Here is the biggest issue of them all. Champion spam is not fun. Throwing champions into master content is not fun. Challenges that test skill are fun. Artificial difficulty is not fun. This lack of innovation is going to not last in the long run for destiny 2. Overkill nerfs Another issue is the way nerfs are handled. The whole point of a nerf is to bring it in line with everything else. But the way you guys do it is overkill. For example the nerf to renewal grasps hunter exotic. When the nerf was applied you only needed to nerf the damage resistance by 1x not 2x and adding a base 2:30 minute cooldown. You could have done a 1:30 minute cooldown. Another example is the nerf to axion bolt grenades. You didn’t need to nerf the cooldown and the tracking. Another example is the stasis nerfs. When light 3.0 subclasses were introduced they power crept pretty bad for stasis. For example stasis had the fragment that buffed damage buff then it was swapped for consistency stats but then here comes solar with radiant buff. On top of that stasis has less ability options compared to the light based subclasses. Why can’t stasis get some additional love. Bottom line is stop overdoing nerfs and buffs. Stick to a formula. For example all debuffs and buffs stick to a hard 15% no matter what. Unwanted game mechanics Another example is adding mechanics no one asked for that ruin game as a whole. For example sunsetting and airborne effectiveness. No one asked for these changes. No one wanted all their time grinding wasted in an instant. No one asked for their guns to be less effective in the air with little ways to spec into it. Stale holiday events The holiday events are no longer worth it as the event card is just a quick cash grab and costs as much as a season for only 3 weeks or even a seasonal dungeon. This type of predatory monetization is not right. The same stale arenas that have the same bugs that were never fixed. Not to mention newer bugs from a COPY AND PASTE of the same event model and arena. Live service aspects Why live service games and Games as a Service models are questionable. We don’t own the stuff we paid for. No urgency from devs to fix their product and the whole we’ll fix it when we get to it mentality. No innovation from developers anymore which leads to the player playing the same stale content which leads to burnout. More effort put into cosmetics than the actual gameplay. No dedicated customer support page/team to contact or file a ticket with. Play how the studio wants even though we pay. Customer has no say in the game that is a SERVICE they are paying for to get the best experience. Play when the studio wants due to them controlling servers. Those are my issues with the game and it’s service right now. I voice these issues hoping to save the studio not harass them. Yes bungie has a right to monetize, and I will give credit to them for making good expansions but their seasons have been lackluster and felt like double dipping with reskinned assets.

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  • Every single point is valid and represents my observations with a few additions even (as a long time player myself). Too bad that these hypocrites don't care at all. Claiming to "listen" while doing the exact opposite is what they've been doing the past 3 years now. They do what THEY want, which is focusing on monetization. Exclusively. Player enjoyment is not worth a single thought for those guys. Sadly.

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  • Edited by Scratch: 10/25/2022 6:44:49 PM
    [quote]Player burnout, poor server quality, and heavy monetization are not good to the longevity of Destiny 2[/quote] The sad irony? People have been saying this for years and years. It's not Bungie, it's the players that allowed this to happen. Think cosmetics are overpriced? Nope. Things will only ever cost what people are willing to pay. That's how it works. If things were overpriced people would refuse to buy. This would cause the price to go down. We tried ringing the alarm bells when Eververse first showed up in D1 and were told 'Don't give me that slippery slope bullXhit, it's just emotes, besides all the money go into free events like sparrow racing, etc.' Well, just take a look around. If you're willing to throw money at the screen Bungie would be fools not to take it, I mean wouldn't they? Don't blame Bungie, blame the community. This is what people want: •$10... That's outrageous! •But it's sooooooo cute😍 •OK, take my money! •....why's everything overpriced/stuffed with microtransactions? Because this is what the community wants, silly This is why I was telling everyone back in D1, 'Don't feed the bears' Shame on anyone who blames Bungie for collecting the money players are willing to 'throw at the screen' We had a chance to stop this. There was a crossroads, two outcomes. When Eververse first showed up. If we all said, 'Nope, not in our game! Destiny would be a vastly different game than it is today. ....but.... That dance is sooooo cute! Way overpriced, but I'm gonna buy it because I can't live without it. Well, that's not really overpriced then, is it?

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    42 Replies
    • Great post. Unfortunately, this game is too far gone to save. There is literally no soul to this game anymore, it is just grind a seasonal activity to level up a seasonal vendor, rinse and repeat. I have been here since the D1 beta, I used to have tons of friends who played thos game as well. Now it is just myself and a couple of buddies, and we don't play NEARLY as much as we used to. It isn't really a game anymore; it is just a digital interactive core list. Go find a better game. As I look around, however, it is slim pickings these days. Perhaps we have reached peak video game, and it is time to shift to something else.

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    • Well done. Agree the game is beyond stale …

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    • I agree. Game is super boring. Just a repetitive hamster wheel.

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    • As a D1 Vet...I agree with this. I'm so burned out and definitely not having much fun with D2 anymore

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    • I've just about had it, too. It's just not that fun anymore. The grind has become onerous, as it's the same stuff over and again with different window dressing. I can hardly play through this season, and the Halloween event bores me to tears. The infusion issue at the vault has crept back over the last couple of months making inventory management take that much more time. I swear I spend about a quarter to a third of my time managing inventory sifting through shite looking for pearls. I've talked about Bungie's thinly veiled FOMO in a lot of other threads, here, over the years, ever since they professed to be rid of it. Bounty expiration, vaulted content, seasonal activities, sunsetting; a rose by any other name would smell like FOMO? I've hung in there to see how the story ends, because I've had a clan since beta, because I'm wating for the next big thing, because I'm a sucker, and for myriad other reasons, but my time here is growing short.

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    • Edited by Sohsuh: 10/26/2022 1:31:36 PM
      One of the worst parts of this game is the pinnacle grind. It forces you into old activities that haven't been changed or updated in years. It just completely kills the game. The funny thing is, without the pinnacle grind there wouldn't be anything to do. Bungie uses it to pad their content. If we were able to just run a GM the first week, people would be done with the season in less than 2 weeks. But with the pinnacle grind, especially when it constantly gives you double pieces, it pushes you into playing for longer than you really want to. They force the pinnacle grind on you to play the exact same content you were playing the previous season, without new rewards. We were playing the Master Grasp during the 30th anniversary that we paid extra for. Then with Witch Queen, suddenly we couldn't play it unless we leveled our power again. The rewards didn't change at all though, so it makes no sense to force us to level up just to play it. Then, when the raid rotation came, now we can't even select it to play unless it pops up during its playable week, which makes ZERO sense. Witch Queen was great during the campaign, and the second we went back to the pinnacle grind afterwards, the fun disappeared. It was back to the same old same old activities and it just felt terrible. The more we do this pinnacle grind every season, the more burnt out we get, and unfortunately I don't see them changing it at all. We need a Destiny 3 at this point. 90% of the content in the game is recycled, unchanged, stale activities and there's just no way they can add in enough content for us to enjoy long term without it being a totally new game with fresh planets and activities.

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    • It is just not worth buying lightfall at all.

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    • Your not alone… once we all realize that Destiny 2 isn’t a MMO or even a looter shooter no more but glorified monetizing mobile game… Bungie when eververse was introduce “help fund new PvP maps, dlcs etc” present day expansions are $50-60 plus $10 bucks a season plus event cards to locks cosmetics but you have to grind to earn them even though you paid for them?!?? O_o

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    • When I started playing D1 during the taken king I was ecstatic, took me a bit to warm up to raids but when I did I loved them, I played trials of Osiris went flawless saw the lighthouse gun play felt great. Age of Triumphs came I helped a lot of new players and old players alike get their first clears in all the raids heard the joy when they conquered Oryx, Crota, Atheon, and Aksis the same joy I felt my first clears. Then came D2 Y1 was horrible had all base exotics in a weeks worth of play, curse of Osiris dropped so did my stomach, Warmind dropped gave a little hope, forsaken came the dreaming city left me breathless the campaign was fantastic then the sun setting came the hundreds of dollars I spent on content went down the drain, been down hill from there. I’ve purchased everything this games had to offer up to WQ deluxe I’ve had my memories, my fun but that’s where it stops. Between my PC, PS, and Xbox accounts I’ve logged a total of 8000 hours, I’ll still log on every so often but the flair that the game used to have has died for me won’t be getting lightfall because the same boring mindless grind just isn’t for me anymore. The forums say it all when you see more negative then positive. Still not bashing the game it’s seen me through and made me some lifelong buddies.

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      1 Reply
      • As a Destiny Vet i also stand by this statement. I now only go in to check the store and that’s it. got tired of it all. def burn out to no end. Might as well ask for my refund back on lightfall and that was $106 dollars for that. If bungie don’t step it up more and harder. Ill be happy to rate the game 1 star due to all the issues from pve / content / pvp / etc I’m beyond fed up!!!! on how things have been handled and how we as customers been treated. Enough is enough. DO BETTER BUNGIE!

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      • I remember #removeeververse in D1. [spoiler]tess Everess won[/spoiler]

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      • funny with this current event with all the things you have to buy, then i see other games doing halloween, showing off all the things you can get for free, with something brand new to do,....and destiny has pay for cosmetics and doing the same lost sectors fighting the same bosses for a sniper rifle while grinding the same game modes, but with a mask! its lazy and greedy!

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      • Honestly, I think the seasonal model needs to go. They do give us content, weapons and all kinds of random crap every couple of months for only 10$, but as time has gone on...it's obvious that the amount of time to deliver anything meaningful...is just not enough. Repetitive horde modes, weapon styles that look so good but only get put on a handful of the weapon types, a single exotic per class, a single seasonal exotic and maybe an extra quest one and then tons of emotes or flair that could be used for challenges specifically for the event...locked behind an artificial grind that can literally be done within 2 weeks if you just spam what gives a ton of experience. The game gives you stuff to play around with for basically 3 months, but it doesn't deliver anything remotely meaningful. Battle passes as a system work, but they only work for games that HAVE NO DIFFERENT CONTENT. Overwatch has dozens of characters to which challenges could be created to give rewards. Reward playtime, SOMETHING. But instead it wiped its loot box system away to charge you individually for each OLD skin or locks new stuff behind an unrewarding battle pass that's even more stingy than other games with it I've played. I will keep saying it over and over, gears of war 3 had one of the most satisfying reward systems in any game I've played. Characters, weapon skins, titles, stuff that games will nickel and dime you for now...behind challenges that reward investment. You know if somebody had one of the golden armored locust...that they played the game a LOT and could very much be a huge threat in a multiplayer lobby. A title that says I've killed players or pve enemies with the 5 man starting weapons so much that you get a title that upgrades from man at arms, to God at arms. Healers in pvp games literally joke about a god complex, guess what the max rank ally revive medal is called, God Complex. These titles took an insane amount of time to get, but legitimately held weight in the game and some of these titles...UNLOCKED CHARACTERS FOR YOU. What do the titles in destiny give you? Ghost projection? Maybe a ship? All nonsense in the scope of every other cosmetic the game has to offer. The end reward is just some purple letters next to your name that honestly mean nothing most of the time because of rng being the reason you don't get a title for the activities it would actually matter in. Dungeons having these like 0.5% drop rate for items that literally stop you from getting titles is just abysmal and raids have it too. A title is just a time sink far worse than it was in gears of war 3 because you are just getting unlucky, vs needing to invest time. This game legit sucks with rewarding players and that needs to change. Because the content always being copy paste means the only thing carrying excitement is the loot.

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      • All very valid points. Regarding power creep, I think this is a hard one to fix. It happens to all games if they stick around long enough and what do you do? Give all weapons an expiry date (sunsetting)? Ban some weapons from certain playlists (like some have suggested for Linear Fusions in Crucible)? Stop putting powerful perks on new weapons (people will complain about lack of good loot to chase)? For me, the top three issues are: 1. Excessive grind in PvE, especially for things that are not that important/appealing. Some examples are the 35 Haunted Lost Sector completions as one of the FOTL challenges, Lost Sector armour drop rates should be increased (from 25 to 33 % for the lower difficulty and 33 to 50 % for the higher difficulty) or Trials loot drop being very scarce compared to GM loot drop, even though GMs are a much easier activity. 2. Lack of dedicated servers in PvP. If I get destroyed by a better player in Crucible, I'm cool with it. What I don't accept is cheaters and laggers. I don't know what they did since this week's reset but the amount of rubber-banding I have seen from opponents has increased exponentially and it was already not great before the reset. 3. Seemingly arbitrary nerfing/buffing of armour, weapons and abilities (Loreley gets nerfed twice in six months but Omnis get nerfed for the first time after five months, Point-Cont Cannon Brace gets nerfed to the ground immediately but Gyrfalcons are fine, get disabled after a couple weeks, then come back and one-shot you with Wishender, etc.).

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      • Whatever charm this game still had has faded and I've stopped playing. What actually broke me was the Divinity nerf. It wasn't a question of whether or not is was needed, it was that it wasn't on the table until the upper echelon complained about it. I lost all hope that they would ever go back to making a game that was about being fun and accessible. They'll change when they realize the upper folks aren't enough to pay the bills, but I won't be suckered back again.

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      • Agree with everything. Also been here since D1 and have to say I have always hated the season model. Before that we would play the game for fun. Raid countless times and still want more and help people through it. Never got enough of it. When I play the game it feels like I am being pulled away from what I want to play by the stupid events or having to grind some silly this or that for FOMO. I have also come to the conclusion that Bungie don't want D-vets in the game anymore. They know how good the game use to be and constantly create problems for them? I won't be getting Lightfall either. I have taken up astronomy and will spend my evenings watching the stars instead.

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      • Many of my clanmates have left this season mostly due to the quality of pvp. Everyone was so excited about gunplay focus when it was announced but now it's ability spamming which is the complete opposite. The SBMM experiment has taken a toll on pvp population as well. The new weapon metas seem more toxic than ever. Punishing players for leaving toxic games is negative reinforcement. Should have given positive reinforcement for public noncompetitive playlists. I've been here since Destiny 1 day 1 and even though I haven't left yet, I can truly empathize with those who have.

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      • I can honestly say Destiny 2 is exclusively the only game that I unintentionally, yet literally fall asleep while playing. The Crucible being the only exception, and my apologies to anyone I've played with when this happened. The content and the grind are just so repetitive and boring that my brain decides now is a good time to recharge since it isn't being used much.

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      • Well for most of your point they are your biased opinion ....

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      • The absolute worst is glitches that are obviously bungies fault that we are punished for without attempts to fix them. I have artifice armour that is still bugged with no estimate on it ever being fixed, adept mindbenders ambitions with 1 perk in column 3, Duality Dungeon still randomly killing people. I have never played a game where such impactful glitchs are just barely addressed or fixed. Like if a glitch makes A PvE weapon or exotic hit too hard, its disabled in a matter of hours and not fixed for a matter months, yet its tough s**t if a glitch impacts you positively and not our problem or just don’t play it when its time to fix it. Like if the loot is bugged in looter shooter,

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      • [quote]No urgency from devs to fix their product and the whole we’ll fix it when we get to it mentality.[/quote] [quote]No dedicated customer support page/team to contact or file a ticket with.[/quote] These are also two of my biggest gripes about the state of D2, although you mentioned a lot of other good ones, as well.

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      • Great post, agree with you 100%. The only thing I'm curious about is why the comments aren't sh*itting on you like they do with all the other posts that mention similar things as yours? I'm genuinely curious about the psychology of it. Is it how you worded it, your stats, the amount of text? Why do others get called whiny or babies when bringing up the same points of view, but here I find unity.

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        2 Replies
        • They’re not gonna change unless their data tells them to. Data pertinent to sales and player engagement.

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        • [quote]heavy monetization are not good to the longevity of Destiny 2 [/quote] This presupposes that Bungo gives a flying monkey's [b]s[/b]hit about this game's longevity. It's felt like a mad dash of a cash grab for a few years now. I think Bungo is far more interested in making as much cash as fast as possible.

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