These AE changes have simply ruined crucible for a large majority of players. It has lowered the skill ceiling and it feels awful. It doesn't even work properly right now. There are countless videos online right now showing people with 80-100 AE and missing shots on targets standing completely still. https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2022/06/12/destiny-2-videos-show-something-is-very-broken-with-pvp-after-airborne-effectiveness-changes/?sh=30e7044a7c76 https://twitter.com/Gigz/status/1536027050376577028 Let's try to discuss it in a civil manner. This game needs a movement skill gap because without it, it feels like any other regular fps game. Destiny has always stood out because of it's movement and gunplay, and so neutering the movement just ruins it completely. It no longer separates itself from other shooters. Having skill gaps is a good thing for an fps game because it's something to work towards. You can feel the progression which is a great feeling. I have been trying to get better for almost a year now, and one thing I was working on for a long time which was holding me back was the movement. One thing people need to understand, is this change hurts everybody. No matter what your skill level is, this change will affect you any time you jump into the air. Jumping is not only offensive. Jumping can be used defensively as well. If someone rushes you with a shotgun, you can utilize the movement and jump backwards to create space and primary them down while floating/jumping backwards. You can no longer do that. It now gives the person rushing an easier chance. "With substantial investment (51-70 airborne stat), a character will have better accuracy than retail weapons with Icarus, with fewer misses due to randomness, but with reduced aim assist." So this was either a lie or the system is fundamentally broken, but either way it makes no sense to add it into the game. 1. Going up into the air exposes you 100% to anybody looking up. You abandon ALL cover, and do a very high risk, high reward play by going up into the air. You expose yourself to all sorts of angles that you were not exposed to by staying on the ground behind cover. 2. When you jump/float up into the air, you have to aim your reticle on the target the same as you would if you peaked out from cover, only now you have to do it while you're moving in the air. You could be floating up, floating down, moving forwards or backwards, and while you are moving you have to aim onto someone's head, control your recoil, and hit your shots, before that person (or their teammates) shoots you in the air since you are now a very easy target without any cover or escape. 3. Being up in the air and shooting down at an enemy is barely different than shooting at someone while standing on a raised platform. It's just vertical gunplay, only with jumping, we create the verticality instead of having to find a platform to stand on to aim down on enemies. But it is the same thing. Think the B flag on Fragment. If an enemy is down on B, and someone jumps up on one of the side platforms, they are now having to shoot at someone who is above where they are, similar to someone jumping. It isn't as high as some people can jump, but it is still the same thing nonetheless. "Destiny has extremely fluid and expressive airborne movement, but that movement must be balanced against grounded players lest it become oppressive." They talk about how jumping in the air and shooting your opponent is "oppressive". So, let's talk about what is OPPRESSIVE. I can pop my golden gun, and go ham on a team of enemies, one after another. I can jump in the air and press the letter F on my keyboard, and Blade Barrage an entire group of enemies and kill them ALL. I can press F on my keyboard, and shoot a big purple blob at a group of enemies, and it will blow them all up. I can pull up a barricade wall and give myself an overshield, where you will need to hit me with more shots than someone who doesn't have an overshield. I pressed a button while standing still and now I have more health. I can use my Lorentz Driver which has so much aim assist I don't even really have to aim, and after I get the easy kill it will pull anyone within 20 meters towards that enemy and potentially kill them as well. I can press a single button on my keyboard, (while wearing Omni) and go invisible with a big damage resist, just from hitting a button on my keyboard multiple times throughout the match. I can press a button to grab heavy ammo, literally just stand there and press a button and get a rocket for my Gjallarhorn, which has tracking rockets so it does all the work for me, and aim it at an enemy who will get 1 shot instantly. The wolfpack rounds after I kill him will then track onto other enemies and kill them all as well. I can press a button to grab heavy ammo, and pull out a sword to warp 100 meters and slash someone in 1 hit. But where people are drawing the line, what people have an issue with when it comes to balancing this space fantasy fps, is when I jump up in the air, and have to shoot down on a target, aiming my weapon while moving and controlling my recoil while moving, exposing myself to new angles and abandoning all cover, this is where the problem is, huh? Go ahead, super me. Rocket me. Sword me. I don't care. Get an overshield to give yourself more health on a whim. Make yourself radiant whenever you feel like it for a damage buff. Use Lorentz Driver which has the aim assist cone the size of an airplane hangar. I don't care. But don't you dare try to aim your reticle on my head while floating in the air without any cover. That is way too unbalanced for this game! Now let's talk about balance, and how people view balance in this game. The same people who like the AE changes also claim that this game is not a competitive shooter. OK, so if it isn't competitive, and we have silly things like rockets and supers, then why can't I hit a target while I am up in the air? Why is the line drawn there? The argument for this not being competitive is actually an argument FOR being able to shoot while in the air, not against it. Nerfing in air accuracy into the ground is ironically the more competitive approach. The AE changes have hurt the Crucible so much, and it is so disappointing. The pvp community is one of the most patient communities in gaming that I have ever seen. They waited years for a single map. They waited and waited. Trials has been good and bad and good and bad. They still played. Comp has been literally nothing for a long time, and they are waiting. After all this pain, for some odd reason, Bungie... instead of throwing them a bone and making crucible better, they decide to lower the skill ceiling and neuter in air gunplay in a space fantasy fps game where there are so many unbalanced weapons/supers/etc? This just makes no sense to me. It's like, after all this time, they slap the pvp community in the face? So I hope people can discuss this in a civil way, because this is something that needs to be talked about. I feel like at this point, Bungie really needs to just remove it. It has ruined the crucible and people will just leave the game because the movement was a major reason that Destiny has been more enjoyable than other games, so without it, other games become more appealing. This change doesn't actually help anyone. It feels bad for anybody who uses jump, and it's depressing

They nerfed jumping and sliding? Good. Hipfire, jumping, and sliding should be so hard to work that only very few who have built into that skillset can do it. It should be very hard earned, just like sniper, shotgun, and hand cannon play. These things are so powerful they have to be near impossible for most to utilize properly so PvP doesn't turn into shotguns hand cannons and snipers only, like it has felt for quite some time now, save for the fusion rifles last season😂. That was frustrating. Every weapon needs to be relevant and balanced, and for every type, sacrifices have to be made. Everything has, and needs drawbacks, because 100% of the time, the playerbase will make it as easy as possible on themselves. That's fine, that's just life, the path of least resistance, but it has to be heavily controlled in gaming because its too easy for a few people to ruin everything with little to no effort. That's just the way it goes. We can't change that because nobody controls anyone but themselves. I'm not sure what you mean by a slow ttk personally. Most kills are two shots and barely a second. The only thing that will kill faster is one shot, and I don't ever want that Crucible. Two shot Crucible is bad enough in a space fantasy where we're supposed to be, essentially all powerful, God-like beings who wield hard light to destroy legions and armies. Game operations should reflect the world they're built upon in every aspect and every mode. Too slow is bad too, of course, but it takes more to ruin that way. This stuff doesn't stay like this though, because every time something is nerfed, something else becomes way stronger, and it just continues, alternating strong and weak as long as the game exists. That's just games. Its a never-ending cycle of balance, or rather, as close to balanced as we can get because it never stops teetering. I'm sure it'll make a comeback at some point, but for now, I'll hopefully enjoy it a little. PvP needs all the help it can get. There will literally never be an ideal PvP. As long as you're dealing with mass amounts of people, ideal simply doesn't exist, its 100% impossible because someone always has troubles or gripes. Who knows? Maybe this will turn out to be a bad idea, then they readjust closer to what it was. We don't know the future. Personally I feel if Bungie wants to make team based PvP experiences, then they need to start focusing on making people play as a team. If that means destroying things that make specific people or play types stand out too much, ok fine. We've already hit rock bottom PvP, so now is the best time to experiment. We'll see how it goes, I suppose.

You can spec yourself out to be even more effective in the air than before. Now it just comes at a price.

Enter the yet another post about airborne effectiveness sucks because aztecross made a video

Changes are great. TTK is fine. Hope they keep making good changes like this

People really want perfect accuracy while sliding or jumping as if that's completely okay and normal. No. Where's the skill in your movement? There isn't. You people complain about unskilled players that don't move and walk everywhere. Last time I checked a still target is a free kill. So where's your so called skill now? Pathetic, honestly you "skilled" players. You're good at hopping around and running away but not aiming.

I get the premise..but bungies miss was not giving us any meaningful way to build into it.

Nothing will be done. These changes were for bad players who couldnt think in 3 dimensions. And theyll keep nerfing the game for those players until crucible is only people bot walking with double primaries and spamming abilities. I dont know who thinks that's fun but it is what it is.

How are jumping and sliding nerfed? It's [i][b][u]aiming[/u][/b][/i] while you're doing it. You're less accurate when you're moving versus when you're not moving. That makes sense. You know with all the benefits we have like bullet magnetism, Target acquisition etc it's almost like the game plays itself. Even with the tweaks to AE, I still see people headshotting while in the air and even more still choosing to just stay on the ground and blast you with a shotgun anyhow.

I'm just not going to play for the summer... So many other things to do, no more covis worries... Yeah I call it covis... I'm going to play other games.. go outside.. go on vacation.... Oh I'll be back next season to take a peak maybe pop in from time to time for reset buy a gun blah blah... But you will not have my support any longer for activities and metas I do not enjoy... Lol who am I n do they care, nope n no one... We made this game, we can change it by not playing... Y'all do you and enjoy your time.

I don't think people understand why Bungie Did it, they did it so Console and PC players are at a Balanced playing field since Console players are stuck at Lower FOV and Framerate's, its so the Higher FOV and framerate PC players can't just jump around and above Console players was it a really bad approach to fix a Big issue yes they could have just not done crossplay with PC in PVP Also why cant they allow for FOV Increase on console ive seen better looking games have a FOV slider and it still run well heck No mans sky has a FOV slider and it still runs really good on Console

[quote]Destiny's movement is what set it apart from other fps. Now you nerfed sliding and jumping to the point where your shots dont go where you shoot. Remember when someone posted about how Bungie increases playtime by forcing you to visit the helm and the tower separately. This is the same thing. Destiny's ttk is so slow that usually you need an ability/special to finish someone running away. Special wasnt the issue. Its the slow ttk. Everyone always gets away with 1 shot. Nerfed special and special ammo which slowed ttk and gameplay. You could also rush to finish them by sliding or jumping. Nerfed again. The game is slowing down so you have to play longer to finish a game which means stat-wise people play "longer".[/quote] How I read this was….I’m no longer a PVP god with my infinite one hit kill special weapons that racked up 30 kills a game…. Seems to me like Bunigie simply removed easy mode and you don’t want to adapt.

How about no? Bungie wants boots on the ground, and people with boots on the ground shouldn't be put at a disadvantage just because you pressed your Space bar. If you [b]really[/b] want to hit that epic jumping 360 spin while spinning your weapon 360 to land a colleterial no-scope, you gotta build into that. Now, I will agree there should be more ways to build into it, such as more exotics. One change I'd make is to make Air Assault give a lower amount of AE but it stays active all the time, and letting Eye of the Storm increase AE with damage instead. It'd make an Air Assault+Eye of the Storm roll pretty deadly I'd think. Right now only Calus Mini-Tool can roll that, but it'd be nasty if any more weapons can get both of those at once. Another thing they could do is build AE into certain jumps, like Strafe Jump for Hunter has +15 AE, whereas Higher has 0 AE and Triple has -15 AE, something like that.

Great changes more is needed. Adapt or git gud. Pick your poison.

nah take this L. your just mad that you cant aimbot for 1000 feet in the air. get good ^_^

Keep It, the game is perfect now! Jumping and sliding should be used for traversal. Oh, my sidearm is still good in the air. Poor guys with shotguns, hahahaha. Sorry, but now you need to use weapons that require aiming. I don't know who thought that shooting without even aiming was skill. Press slide, shoot, punch, and repeat, and repeat... Yeah... Skill.

Mad that you can't freely crutch Stompees + shotguns in the air anymore?

Bungo: …but the majority of our streamers are Titans/Warlock mains and they constantly hated on Hunters and Airborne Gameplay….sorry