First of all, there were zero positives for fighting lion on this TWAB. It was all nerfs. [b]Infinite ammo changes nothing for fighting lion[/b] as it already had infinite ammo. [b]You could already spam fighting lion before. But that shit only works against pve players.[/b] Not only did they nerf fighting lion's reload speed to nonexistence, they also nerfed the damage AND blast radius. [b]They did not at all take into account Fighting Lion's velocity[/b] stat which is horrible compared to the special grenade launchers. Originally FL was strongest at mid range, weak at long range (due to velocity and travel time), and weakest at close range (since its extremely hard to hit bodyshots and you can't detonate at close range) Now that it also has bad reload and worse damage its also weak at medium range. So according to bungie they wanted fighting lion to be used only as a fight opener (not a closer since that doesn't activate "thin the herd"). But I question even its viability as a fight opener now that the damage and radius got nerfed (this is actually a double nerf to the damage since damage is based on radius). Sure, if you use your radar and prefire enemies coming out of cover, then that would result a lower TTK when they peek out or when you peek in. But you can also pre-aim with a sniper or any other weapon and essentially get the same result. You can also pre-damage someone by bouncing the grenade off walls before they even peek out but that usually just result in them running away if they're any good at pvp. And you can't do a follow up shot because your reload sucks. So what about the other cases? Lets say it a 1v1 and you're both in the open. The max damage you'll usually do is 124 if you detonate close to direct hit distance (I call BS on anyone saying they can regularly hit bodyshots with FL). Then you'll have to take into account swapping (quick but not instant) and ADSing and re-acquiring the target. [b]The likelihood of you losing that 1v1 increases the further you are away from the enemy due to its low velocity[/b]. And [b]the closer you are to the enemy, the higher the likelihood of you getting shotgunned or fusion rifled to the face[/b] and losing. [b]There's a very small sweetspot where opening with the fighting lion actually helps your TTK and that limits your choices of primary weapons as opposed to special gls which are good at any distance due to higher velocity and proximity grenades (for close range).[/b] At most ranges, you're better off just using your other KINETIC weapon that whole fight. That's right I said kinetic weapon.[b] You are essentially sacrificing a special slot by using Fighting Lion[/b]. The only special weapon that could work effectively with fighting lion is another grenade launcher. Right now, that is Ignition Code but that's because Ignition itself is OP but that's another story. You can actually activate "Thin the herd" with a double GL combo. But let's look at the other 2 options which are more common. Fighting Lion with shotguns - fighting lion doesn't really help you that much with close range. The most you can do is pepper up people with FL. Then what? You rush in and get shotgunned yourself? You can't use it at mid-range because of the reload speed. So you are still stuck at short range. Fighting Lion with sniper - Snipelion was a thing but you're basically -blam!-ed from midrange and in because you can't reload fast enough for a 2nd shot So now I ask why was Fighting Lion nerfed in the first place? Is it OP? I think everyone can agree that Recluse and Mountaintop were straight up OP but people actually used it. The same with DMT, 120 hand cannons, quickdraw shotguns, Ignition Code, stasis, geomags, etc. Which to me proves that d2 players will always use what is strongest, most cheesy setups. But I hardly see people using Fighting Lion in pvp. So maybe, just maybe, [b]fighting lion isn't all that powerful or OP[/b]. [b]The shotgun nerfs hardly affected fighting lion[/b] since FL is still just as weak in close range and shotgunners actually have more range now since they just switched to chaperone. And its not that strong for long range due to its velocity as I said before. [b]It actually has downsides and is balanced unlike the special grenade launchers[/b] which are good at any distance, can 1 shot, and can aoe 1 shot, and have proximity grenades for close range. I think most of the content creators just kept crying about gl's and fighting lion somehow got lumped in even though they're not in the same weight division. Part of it I feel is also the stigma in d2 that anything outside of hand cannons, shotguns, and snipers "don't require skills" when its actually the opposite specially for the first 2. I would have been fine with a reduced damage and blast radius which would have fixed the spamming issue since it isn't all that effective as a spamming weapon in the first place. At least against semi-decent opponents. Everything seems so much more OP in 6v6 but I can argue that you could make anything work in 6's. I've been using cerberus with a bow recently because I wanted to take a break from BowLion and I've been doing pretty well with it. Rat King as well. You can make almost anything work because there's objectives and people are less focused since there's more people.