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Edited by Wes: 7/14/2021 5:41:44 PM
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Finally Beat Master VoG - Feedback

Sunday night I beat Master VoG. It took a while, mostly because clan members and myself had jobs and other commitments. We did every encounter except for Aetheon with 5 players below 1340, with several below 1335. We did the raid throughout the week. Sunday night after everyone else had to go, I went ahead and used LFG with a friend and got it done. I was at 1337, my friend was at 1341, and everyone else was in the late 1330s I believe. So first and foremost, 1340 isn't a requirement. But the raid is very rough without it. We lacked the DPS to one phase Templar, so we actually had to manage the overloads and oracles. That was probably the hardest part of the raid. I will say that while 15 to 20 power under, it was very difficult. However, it wasn't so difficult it was frustrating (like some GMs). I personally thought it was good, but being 10 power under might be better for most players. I also really enjoy timelost weapons and the fact that masterworking materials and high stat roll are drop from encounters. Finally beating Aetheon on Master brought me back to my first heroic clear in D1. It was the most fun I've had in D2 in a while, and the challenge didn't feel as artificial as GMs. However, I'd say a better representation of "difficultly" would have been a 1340 raid with additional, more difficult mechanics. This would have been more accessible to players as well. On to other key points of feedback: 1. Anti champion mods are too limiting. For example, the anti overload mods this season are SMG and hand cannon. The anti barrier ones are scout and auto. The shields in the conflux encounter are all arc. Just off the top of my head, there is one arc scout, one arc auto, 3 arc hand cannons, and 3 arc SMGs. So right there, one of our slots is limited from a whole slew of choices to 3, at the most. That's extremely limiting. I think a better solution would be to have all anti champion mods perform and cost as they do now, but have them all available every season. The Artifact should provide "enhanced" versions of some of these mods (for a higher cost) and rotate out each season. The enhanced versions could increase stun duration, reduce the time to charge overload or unstoppable rounds, stun easier, etc. That change would put more freedom in our hands while leaving the function of the Artifact intact. 2. The power requirement is 1350, which means a minimum of 20 power levels is needed to be 10 under. I'm all for hard content, but I don't think bounty farming and doing each and every repetitive milestone every week should be the requirement to have an easier time here. Seasonal challenges were a great addition to kind of mitigate this, but I think we need to go a step further. Base activity completions certainly need to give a lot more EXP, so an alternative to bounty farming is just playing how you want. Right now it isn't, and I think that is the issue. 3. With upcoming nerfs to Anarchy, other power weapon buffs are necessary if the power level is going to remain +30 over the pinnacle cap. With the surplus of extremely tanky Wyverns, champions, and bosses, we have to have the firepower to take them down. Rockets hit hard, but only have 7 shots total and one in the tube (normally). 1K hits hard, but has a delay and limited reserves. Machine guns do not do enough damage. Whisper is very underwhelming unless you have an incredibly long, uninterrupted DPS phase. The list goes on. If the power requirement is going to stay where it is, our arsenal needs some improvements so we can overcome it. Let me know what you guys think

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  • Edited by Shirtless_Captain_Kirk: 7/14/2021 12:52:24 PM
    Master VOG proves the Anarchy nerf is painfully NOT NEEDED. Should have been released at 1340. GM is 1335. Most "dedicated" players are in the 1330's 1350 is too much unless they gave us a way to get BAZILLIONS of XP.

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    • Your friend is at 1441? Damn.

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      • Very constructive, I like all your suggestions. If they keep it at 1350 next season i'm going to just wait till then.

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      • Something to consider is that raid power levels don’t tend to change. Ever. The 1350 for master VoG will likely be the same next season, allowing players to meet its power level more easily. And after that, in the Witch Queen, it will likely be at/near the power floor for the game. Your point about the anti-champion mods is valid though. Previously I didn’t mind the rotation of mods each season, but for something as extensive and challenging as master VoG, the holes in the system really start to show.

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        • Such perfect feedback and great suggestions 👍

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        • There is no other feedback for this mess than "Why not 1340???". It's MASTER difficulty. People hated the stupid power grind every season. They hate bounties. They hate xp grind with bounties. Bungie says they want to reduce that. What they did tho is to rename some of the bounties to "weekly challenges" and make even more of them. Then they reduce the power level increase seasonally but require you to farm even more bounties to access endgame. Maybe i'm the problem but in my head, this company just doesn't know where the limit is. They don't know at which point their monotonous, pointless grind is enough.

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          • Edited by Guardian,Archon Of Light: 7/15/2021 2:07:55 AM
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            Guardian,Archon Of Light
            Guardian,Archon Of Light

            Blade Of The Traveler - old

            In hard Mode VOG you had max level armor you couldn't get anywhere else ,you also could only get Mythoclast on hard In hard mode crota you had max level armor you couldn't get anywhere else ,including shaders and the nechrochasm In Hard Mode Kings Fall you had Horrowed Weapons And Armor that was different from normal mode In Hard Mode Wrath Of The Machine you had weapons and Spliced armor you couldn't get on normal mode See the pattern, every hard mode had a buffet of incentives to run it over normal ,what does Master VOG have , 1 curated Master weapon each week and normal drops , Not alot of incentive to brave Master

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          • Congrats on the clear, I've got mixed feelings on the feedback: 1. I actually like the idea of having Champion mods change season over season, it spices things up by changing the required strategies for Master+ content. While I can understand the dilemma of having limited Arc weapons that also have champion mods, teams still have the ability to create team loadouts that have the proper weapons to stun Champions and take off shields. For example, on Atheon, even though I do have a pretty good Arc Scout Rifle, I would tend to run an Arc Grenade Launcher and Kinetic Scout Rifle. This gives me Arc to strip shields and also a Scout Rifle for Anti-Barrier (even though most strats completely avoid taking care of the Hobgoblins). Some seasons will have better weapons for VOG than others, but I see that as part of the challenge season over season. One thing that I do think would help the Champion mod struggle overall is adding more Champion mods to Exotic weapons. While there would still be a shift in overall strategy season over season, this would allow for some stability in reliable weapons that would work if let's say we get Sidearm/SMG for Overload Champions. 2. Given when Master VOG launched this season, I think 1350 is reasonable. Most players who care about endgame content will have been able to get to 1335-1340 with relative ease, which is where I imagine the difficulty of the raid was designed around. I do agree that the Bounty Grind some players do to get to insanely high levels is not healthy for the game, but that's less of a VOG issue and more of a leveling issue in Destiny overall. I'd personally like to see some changes Bounties where Repeatable Bounties provide resources rather than XP, or maybe are capped daily. This change would need to be paired with increased XP from activities or maybe even increased XP for non-repeatable bounties. My biggest fear with Master VOG is how it will be implemented at the beginning of a new season. Like I said, given when it launched this season, I think we are at the appropriate level, however, for a new season, it will take several weeks to get to that level. Timegating it similar go GM Nightfalls could work, but it is not the most ideal solution. 3. I'm not concerned at all, not only will Anarchy continue to be useful in several encounters, but other metas will rise to the occasion, they always do. Witherhoard will become a good pick for add control while other weapons such as Rockets and Snipers will become more used for DPS options. While Master VOG was extremely difficult to complete on Day 1, it has become much easier to complete over time now that people have developed strategies and have adapted to the increased difficulty. While the first runs of VOG next season will be a bit harder, it will become easier over time, which is usually how these things go. Again, congrats on the completion of Master VOG, you are among 45k guardians who have completed it up to this point. This sounds like a lot until you compare it to the 787k guardians that have completed normal VOG, 1170k guardians that have completed DSC, and 668k guardians that have completed Prestige Leviathan.

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          • I think the power issue is a significant one. I don’t expect the recommended power of 1350 is going to change, but at the end of the season we all revert to 1320 at best, meaning grinding 10 pinnacle power ranks and 10 artifact power ranks(or some combination thereof) just to get back to 1340, which will take a few weeks at least for the average player. Witch Queen will be out before our base power is on par with the recommended power level for master VoG. That just seems silly to me. Why not have the same power requirement as VoG but adjust the power scaling, like contest mode, so that it is accessible, but the challenge is consistent?

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          • Plus side I like the challenge especially when basic vog is a strike Loot is ok 1341 makes it mostly doable and with seasonal challenge model you can do burst grinds when you want instead of constant grind Downsides Spire is maybe a little too spicy and causes people to quit. Especially because ammo drops there are not great Spawns are occasionally wild in confluxes and you’ll will get multiple champions and a wyvern on the same side at the same time Wyverns and overload champions have erratic behavior and periodically will teleport all over the place and not respond to stuns or being frozen The seasonal champion mods are not great

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            • Anarchy is only good for the boss fights in my opinion. As for champion killers, we have rockets, swords and supers. Its about time players drop their defensive supers when needed and learn how to proper solo a champion.

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              • A part of me wishes they just made it a contest mode thing that puts players 10 or 15 levels underneath the encounters. I know they probably won’t because that removes the potential for making it easier, but man I hope they do a better job at making it more accessible without ruining the difficulty

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              • Timelost weapons having fixed and random perks is well done.

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                • Edited by DiZ: 7/14/2021 5:12:39 AM
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                  I luckily got one done the night before reset with some clanmates while I was 1342. The challenge was definitely there, but it wasn't unenjoyable for me like I've seen many attest to. Experience/Feedback down below: [spoiler] It didn't take an ungodly amount of time because those dudes are raiding animals, but there was a real sense of urgency I felt with the addition of modifiers and extra Champions(of both types). You may be familiar with enemy spawn points, but not having a radar vs. such strong enemies really kept me on my toes for a stray goblin to just sucker punch me from a blindspot since ads can take so much damage while dishing out even more. Simultaneously, I found I had to be way more deliberate with my positioning since the damage I could take was much, much less, and being down 1 member is far more noticeably impactful than in normal mode. And not being able to 1-phase the bosses really demands that you keep up a good, prolonged pace instead of only needing one good damage cycle.[/spoiler]

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                • Pro Add champion- enjoy fight with champion Extra mod more challenging Con Grind Artifact level Reward is very poor - should be double reward like destiny 1 do

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                • you realize that anti champions mod works on the kinetic slot too? You can very well use a special arc or void gl for all the shields

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                  • Just make it like a GM. X levels to enter, X level handicap. Not rocket science bungie.

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                  • They best not nerf Anarchy. They need to buff others... LIKE 1K FOR GODS SAKE!!

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                  • I personally LOVED master VOG my first two times doing it, this week and last week. I love that it feels like a 6man GM, and demonstrates massive chaos. It really needs good teamwork. I love the difficulty!! I almost wish it was harder lol.

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                  • Edited by DriftedColt4179: 7/14/2021 12:35:42 PM
                    Master vog was very very disappointing. Making everything a bullet spunge and one shots is just the lazy way of making something difficult. They could have easily changed mechanics to increase the difficulty.

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                  • I think you covered it very well. Bungie should take notes......Not that I see that happening.

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                  • The two main problems I have with it: 1: The loot is simply not good enough. 2: Why make the level 1350? They could've just made it 1330 with a -10 contest modifier. The power grind is just boring.

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                    • Make use of the raid mods and there are plenty of viable options over anarchy.

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                      • Every encounter doesn’t need a time lost drop, the raid needs time lost armor. The rewards need to be structured just like trials wins. Not as many tho, the master version needs a little more replayability. Just add an extra timelost reward at Templar. Confluxes, oracles, and gatekeeper don’t need timelost drops unless challenge

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                        • Great feed back 👍

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                        • If every encounter dropped a timelost weapon rather than being tied to challenge I’d have no problems with master vog.

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