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3/4/2021 1:11:32 AM
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Pyramid Analysis - Was I Wrong? (spoilers)
<Imagine my confusion when I first fully took in what Unveiling had said. The revelation and confirmation that we were dealing with Gods that predated the universes was... intriguing, to say the least. However, among a casual deep dive into the Winnower's own view of events, I saw something odd. The heavy use of the word "I". Of course, it's the Winnower speaking to us, why not use "I"? Well, the Lunar Pyramid had used, "we".
Of course, I never believed the Pyramids and the Winnower were the same. Though at the time, I didn't believe the ships were alive, merely that the Winnower was reaching through the derelict vessel. In a sense, I was wrong here.
Then came the Arrival. Ghost revealed to us that the ships that crawled over Io, Mercury, Mars, and Titan were actually alive, classifying them as paracausal beings. I made a [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/257910263]post[/url] a while ago describing what I believed to be paracausal entities vs beings merely powered by paracausal energy. There, I gave out the possibility of the Pyramids we've seen so far being more equatable to Ghosts, my reasoning being that there's only one being Traveler-adjacent.
Since my original claims, I've been told otherwise, and have been introduced to quotes I haven't heard yet from entities like Xur. Each time I took it as a blow, and I even took the recent lore behind the Glykon Volatus as a blow to my theory... but is it really?
Is me saying that the Winnower is a brain and the Pyramids are its fragmented eyes any different from me saying that the Pyramids are splinters of the Winnower? Or its "Ghosts"? Was I really wrong when I made my final claims during the Season of Arrivals?
The answer is no.
The Pyramids are fragments of the Winnower, just as the Ghosts are fragments of the Gardener. The devil lies in the details. The Ghosts are given free will, allowed to do their assigned task any way they want. They develop personalities and live lives. The Pyramids aren't given this freedom, instead they are the "we as us" rather than the "we before us" that Ghosts are.
Maybe I was wrong in terms of how close the two were. Perhaps my phrasing was off. I don't know. However, at the end of the day, we know what the Pyramids are. Fragments and pieces of a larger whole. An eldritch brain with hundreds of eyes. Splinters of a Dark God and Ghosts to the Anti-Traveler, the schism to sunder epochs.
[quote]My automatons stand as monuments of my image; reflections of my breadth. They are, as I am: [b]one collective self, as Nothing is[/b].[/quote]
Fragments. Of. A. Whole.
However, the use of "I" in places like Unveiling or the Books of Sorrow as well as the existence of a Mothership begs a question... is there a larger piece that acts as the main body? The voice behind the Darkness implies that there is. Calus saw through the Pyramids and asked to speak to the brain itself. His experiment went wrong and his body now lies in the void... or so we assume.
Its brilliant. Imagine being ethereal and capable of looking at multiple locations simultaneously by dividing your own self... it's magnificent. It's majestic. Majestic.>
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Yours and my Theory's are nearly 99% accurate. Here's the difference between ours, but....could be 100%. I do believe the Black Fleet are Version of a Ghost in a way, as I use the Garden/Farm Analogy. Any farm or Garden requires at least 1 Farmer/Gardner and at least 1 To remove the weeds and keep the strong. Since the "Game" moved beyond the Garden, the Universe became a Farm. I believe the Vex are the Caretakers of the "Garden" but since Crota cut a tear, the Vex like the Black Fleet Branched out. Still working out the kinks.
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2 RepliesThere was a tv show called Stargate Universe. The plot was this ancient ship was travelling to the center of the universe with all these people stuck on board. They were learning about the ship every episode but mostly didn’t really have a clue. It got canceled & people asked the executive producer what the ultimate plot point was of the ship. Where was it going & why....? He replied.... they didn’t really come up with the idea yet. They were making it up every episode. I suspect it’ll be the same with this plot point. Some of the player theories and speculations will ultimately be more interesting then what they choose. I bet they’re bored with it & want to move on.
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I feel like I've been saying this for awhile now The pyrimids are basically vassals for the winnower to act and spread at multiple locations at once. Just like the traveler had to make ghosts to search for Guardians, the winnower had to make the pyrimid ships so it could be spread out yet still connected It also makes sense in a parallel kind of way. The Light values complexity/life/form and as such made individual ghost's with individual minds and individual thoughts, where the darkness values simplicity/death/formless and made pyrimid ships as splinters of itself so it could inhabit our universe while still being formless
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2 RepliesHonest question.. [spoiler] Why were there stairs and hallways and doors inside of the pyramid ship at the end of Shadowkeep? Are there inhabitants of the pyramids? [/spoiler]
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1 ReplyI have said this many times, but I love seeing your posts. Absolutely love it. So thoughtful and generally knowledgeable and analytical. Idk what comes after the Darkness v Light saga, but I hope you're here for it.
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23 RepliesGood job but I see two issues. The references to multiple Travelers would mean that both gods made multiple vessels. So Ghosts would be a splinter of a splinter. If that’s the case, then each Ship/Orb would be less of a splinter and more like a clone. Each one able to carry the existence of the God alone. The second is just how were these vessels made. BoS failed to mention any Dark fleet for sometime into the Hive campaign. Either it didn’t exist or the uplifted civilizations were able to repel them into hiding. I recall a D1 lore card with Ghosts mentioning the creation of a pocket dimension made from the celestial bodies of a solar system by “the powers that be” that trapped the heat and light of several suns. Which would mean the Gods made their own vessels by space magic. Or something made them for them. I’m still mulling over the fact the Winnower refers to the Gardener as an ancient corpse.
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5 RepliesQuestion: in invitation 8 when the Drifter has visons of the Pyramids, he says "tell you right now I don't appreciate what they say" do we now what they said? or how they were taking to him? is there a lore card?
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3 RepliesEdited by Ferus Lux: 3/5/2021 1:57:24 AMI agree with everything except the smaller Pyramids being the equivalent to Ghosts. Multiple Pyramids are still alluded to in the Collapse and Darkness lore and in game visions. The Ghosts were a result of the Traveler being wounded and turning pieces of itself into sentient mission driven drones. I personally think the Pyramid Scales are more akin to Ghosts because after recalling how they beamed downward into the environments, converting them into Pyramidal surface material, I believe they were converting those worlds into more Pyramids and that's why the Black Fleet continues to grow. The Darkness keeps converting the universe into what the Winnower sees as the True Final Shape, the opposite of the Traveler uplifting worlds and species so there is infinite possibility and diversity. One simplifies. The other Diversifies. It's possible any beings on those planets are also converted and condensed into a collective of corrupted conciousness: the veil statues themselves, reminded in the Winnowers image. Maybe, they can be reversed and liberated. Maybe some of those Pyramids were once defeated or converted worlds. Maybe they can be reverted...
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10 RepliesEdited by Natdeguerre: 3/5/2021 12:13:13 AMSo far Bungie hasn’t given much indication that they treat the light and dark as anything other then just two entities, opposing sides of the same coin. Complexity vs entropy. Maybe playing with images of the Big Bang as a bright act of “creation” vs a dark end state of the universe, the last black holes evaporating, leaving a featureless nothingness. It’s elegant as an abstract conflict, if you could even call it that. However in the setting of an FPS game were you sorta need a target, it’s a little unsatisfying. Sure we got the stooges of the darkness such as the hive, but that only kinda leaves you wanting to get to the ones that pull the strings and you can’t really shoot at an abstract concept like entropy, even a large black tetrahedron as it’s avatar isn’t much of an enemy, unless you really hate geometry. Btw I was meaning to ask you what your ideas are about the artefacts, the female veil statues. Those are corporeal imagery at least. Are they just made solely for our benefit, as an interface like Xur and Orin are for the nine? Well Orin was a real being at one point, awoken and so forth, but I think Xur was just made specifically to interact with us or our reality anyways.
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4 RepliesSee now I’m unsettled by this for a few reasons. I’m not saying you are wrong as I truly have no idea, but something about the pyramids being equivalent to ghosts feels off. First off, we don’t know for sure whether or not there can only be one traveler. Sure, there is only one at the moment, but let’s not pretend that the seed planted on IO wasn’t growing into another one. The tree of silver wings was bearing a “fruit.” I believe that fruit was another traveler/light sphere. I also believe it was intentionally sacrificed so as to allow [i]our[/i] traveler to recover. So if potentially there could be more than one traveler/light sphere, it follows that there are/can be more than one pyramid. Notice I am not stating that there are more than one Gardener or Winnower. Those two GODS are above physical conduits, as they are primal forces responsible for the shape of, well, everything. But spheres and pyramids are conduits. Perhaps a necessary prerequisite to directly influence the cosmos? As we know from the curse of Osiris that a universe without light or dark is possible as panoptes simulated one. But you could never convince me in a million years that the vex can/could figure out how to literally kill the Gardener and Winnower. But they obviously can eliminate their physical manifestations: spheres and pyramids. So then what are ghosts? Sub-conduits. They are given power through the true conduit (traveler). The traveler is given power via the Gardener itself. So to summarize this transference of power: 1 - Gardener — Winnower 2 - Traveler — Pyramids 3 - Ghosts — unknown (fish thing?) 4 - Guardians — unknown (hive? Others?) Hopefully Bungie brings forward a race truly chosen by the darkness, an equal to us guardians. [spoiler]just my opinion based on observations[/spoiler]
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Edited by Cleverly Stupid: 3/4/2021 2:45:56 PMI think I'm the only one who noticed the Books Of Sorrow reference at the end. [spoiler]Anyway, that's some interesting stuff right there[/spoiler]
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Children of the Mind.
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8 RepliesDo you think the pyramids at the end will combine into a massive triangle or ball and we have to kill it.
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5 RepliesEdited by Docyx13: 3/4/2021 3:37:44 PMOkay so apologies for the double post but hear me out: Dark Souls. In Space. The Traveler is literally the first flame turning us into unkillable zombies and the darkness is over there like wtf this fire is causing the zombie -blam!-ing apocalypse and needs to be stopped. So they've sided with Kaathe (which is the only reasonable thing to do) to shut this shit down and bring the universe back into order before we literally murder all of existence.
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Edited by Althanash: 3/4/2021 2:57:34 PMCould it be as simple as this. (this is on the fly btw) The Gardener elevated Humanity to be it's own army or "force" in the "great game". The Pyramids are just a reflection of the Winnowers interpretation of what the Gardener has done but on a more overpowering scale. Hence the "We" instead of "I". We're not dealing with the Winnower yet (aside from the Unveiling and such). But perhaps it's direct servants / creations. They have the power of the Dark but cannot overwhelm their master. The Hive would just be a sprinkle of an add on to the Winnowers many disposable armies. Edit: Speaking of Winnowing and Gardening.........could it be said Luke Winnowed us and now Joe is going to be the Gardener?
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Edited by Synge_X: 3/4/2021 2:34:52 PMIm going to weigh in. I would say that your assumption that the pyramids are fragments of a greater whole is true. Just as a traveler is a vessel for the ghosts, and ultimately, the paracausal force that defies the game/logic that took place between the winnower and the Gardener, The pyramids are a vessel for the corrective force of the perceived natural state laid out by the winnower. It is my theory that the pyramids are akin to ships haunted by the souls of who we were before the meddling of the traveler in human affairs. This is why I believe the Darkness appeared to manifest as “us” at the end of Shadowkeep. The salvation they offered, was an answer to the “unnatural” nightmare of paracausal existence, described by the Drifter. The battle of the Darkness and Light Traveler vs Pyramids Circle vs Triangle Causal vs ParaCausal Is the battle of “what could be” vs “what should be” or “what is” Eternal life, Prosperity of the golden age vs the natural state of things, encompassed by the sword logic. Which path is our “Destiny”, or was our “Destiny” stolen from our true selves by the traveler?
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3 RepliesIt could very well be that the pyramid ships are similar to the reapers from mass effect, but instead making ships from the essence of a species. The ships are made from the conciousness of the planets they took. The Antaeus wards talk about gaiaforms and the gods inside the planets. So once the pyramids invade a planet they could destroy it and use the gaiaform inside to create a new pyramid that is under the control of the winnower
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I'm impressed
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2 RepliesI swear, if the Pyramids combine into a giant robot I'm gonna shit my pants.
