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Edited by Cheebruger:
5/27/2020 1:59:32 PM
29
Anyone else feel like there's way too much special ammo in this game?
Firstly- no, I am not advocating for a return to D2Y1, but this is just the complete opposite side of the scale. Instead of only primaries, there's (practically) only specials. There is a middle ground that can be achieved.
I don't play too much PvE, so I don't have too much of an opinion on that. This is a PvP post.
Now that that is out of the way, I can start spewing out my hot takes.
2 shots at the beginning of every round, 2 shots after every death, and (considering most people use at least one scav perk), 2 shots on every kill.
It's extreme, especially if you consider all 3 billion Revokers in every lobby. I digress though, that's an issue of its own.
Every time I play this game, I'm reminded of an intense sense of irony.
I'm shot primarily by special weapons, and primaries are only used in the special situation that my opponent is either: cleaning up a bullet of special ammo, or they're out of special ammo.
How is it common that I can go for multiple games in a row, full of deaths, where I don't die to a primary unless it's cleaning up a special shot. How is it possible in general to lose matches where I don't even get shot once by primaries.
Rhetorical questions, both with the answer that there's too much special, and special is too easy to use (please fix flinch).
It's not uncommon where I feel like I reward my opponent when I kill them. People are so reliant on one-hitting with their special that when they're forced into a primary fight, they're just useless. So, I kill them, and they go back to being a threat.
Some proposed solutions:
Special Ammo will only drop on a kill where all damage was dealt by a primary. Edit: I forgot about abilities, it'd make sense to allow ability kills to drop special as well.
Scavenger perks no longer have a function in the Crucible.
You now only spawn in with one round of special.
You cannot pick up special dropped by a teammate, instead, you can take a few seconds to dismantle the grounded ammo and prevent its future use.
Feel free to mix and match for an actual solution.
Edit:
I've gotten a couple responses saying that a solution would be to buff primaries, but I don't see anything short of a TTK shift making a huge difference. Maybe I'm missing something? If you want primaries buffed, what would you like to see done with them?
English
#destiny2
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Pve it’s kinda luck unless you have a finisher and in pvp it amor mod based and player based whether they picked up ammo or are even using a special weapon. Revoker helps with this abundance of special
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I'd suggest that there is way too much special ammo in PVP simply based on the fact that so many players run entire matches using nothing but a shotgun.
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3 RepliesI feel there's two solutions here. 1. Remove special on respawn. It only comes from kills. Everybody drops special. 2. Remove special from kills. You get special when you spawn and when it's gone it's gone.
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I think the d1y3 special ammo meta would work really well in d2 right now. For those of you who don't know, the d1y3 pvp special ammo economy worked as so: everyone initially spawned with a decent amount of special ammo. If you died, you lost it all and would not respawn with any. The only way to get more was to pick up special ammo crates scattered around the map that spawned every minute or so. In theory, it was an amazing idea and should have stopped special spam. Problem was, there were special weapons thst generated their own ammo (icebreaker, invective, sidearms {which used to be special weapons}) and special weapons that took primary ammo (No land beyond, universal remote). This made everyone gravitate towards these weapons to completely bypass the special ammo nerf, thus the issue of special spam continued with a very limited and stale meta of about 3 weapons, which continues to this day if you go back and play d1. In d2, those weapons don't exist. There are no weapons that just generate their own special ammo (other than revoker, but at least it can't do it on its own). It could potentially solve the problem that had initially intended to do but failed due to that sandbox. That being said, I think it would be a great idea to try this d1y3 special ammo economy again in d2, where that kind of sandbox doesn't exist (and never should exist. Keep icebreaker, invective, no land beyond, and universal remote in d1).
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Primaries need a buff and revoker needs to go. Any gun that rewards you for missing or regens amo is broken. Icebreaker was one and so was that fusion rifle that was semi auto in d1
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1 ReplyPrimaries need a buff. You keep assuming that a primary “buff” is only a ttk shift but you have to take into account the forgiveness of the weapons. For instance, a 150 rpm hand cannons takes 3 crits in order to reach its optimal ttk of 0.8. However making them 2 crit 1 body makes them much more reliable in dueling special weapons. For the most part, when people talk about primary buffs people are talking about forgiveness and body shot ttk. Personally I would like to see flinch be reduced on primaries and for primaries not to get an in air accuracy penalty.
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3 RepliesEdited by RTshadows: 5/27/2020 5:37:52 PMMy hot take is that the devs were on to something with the D2Y1 meta. I loved the idea of double primaries, but the large and glaring flaw was the ttk was wayyyyy too long. I’d be curious to see how that meta would play out with the current primary ttk we have now, obviously with some changes to primaries as well. A middle ground I’ve been kind of thinking of is a kind of hybrid between what we have now and D2Y1. Put all the special weapons back in the power slot for PvP specially but offer ways to gather power ammo other than the pick box that spawns in the middle of the map. Maybe start with two shots and give ammo based on performance? That could cause a snowball effect but who knows. I don’t know how practical it would be being I don’t know if they would be able to retool the sandbox for PvP specifically.
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1 ReplyEdited by Havok: 5/28/2020 11:29:54 AMI think so.. I'm fine with spawning at the start with special but the special dropping after you kill someone should go and be replaced with special crates just like D1... I can't forget about revoker and it regenerating ammo from potato firing have it have a "chance" to return a round. Add rapid respawning as well that would be nice. D1Y3 was the best picture for crucible on how special worked minus icebreaker and invective but d2 doesn't have those 2 weapons so no trouble makers
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1 ReplyKinda yeah but also no. Making adjustments to PvP to make it more skill based are useless in my opinion because the game will always be built on a foundation of chopsticks by a developer who doesn’t care about it so it will never be competitive. In the meantime let people run around with special weapons. If I cared about skill and stuff though I would definitely say yes tone down special ammo.
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2 RepliesSeems fine to me. I don't play games to be out of ammo all the time. Plus with the reload nerfs.... Lol just no.
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1 ReplyIn PVP
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1 ReplyI've had matches where I've never even pulled out my primary. Huh. Doesn't seem so special to me. Lol.
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5 RepliesYear 3 of D1 had a good solution (not perfect) we spawn in the game with 2 rounds, after that the main source for special ammo is special ammo crates that spawned every 45 seconds
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6 RepliesEdited by The Hermit IX: 5/27/2020 9:28:26 PMNo and the last thing most want is another thing being taken away or getting less of, that’s enjoyable to most. I’d like less loading time. I’d like less nerfing. I’d like less bounties. I’d like less bugs. I’d like less reskins. I’d like less awful content. Those are negative things and having less of a negative thing makes the overall experience better. Everyone would agree on having less of those. Taking away something that makes players have a more enjoyable time has to stop. They should be spending their time fixing things like I listed instead of taking away things.
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3 RepliesEdited by TheArtist: 5/27/2020 1:53:39 PMNo. The problem is that primaries are ridiculously underpowered for the speed at which Guardians can move. Which makes it impossible for Bungie to balance the sandbox properly....so they have to restrict ammo. But if you restrict ammo too much, you wind up with PVP becoming a Napoleonic War simulator. Teams just stand shoulder to shoulder and mass their fire. So numbers trump any sort if individual skill (vanilla D2). The solution to the "special weapons problem" has alwasy been to BUFF PRIMARIES. But Bungie won't do that for some reason.
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1 Reply
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12 RepliesLmao, no. Special ammo isn't a problem
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3 RepliesBest option Buff primaries
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1 Reply
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2 RepliesKeep the beginning two shots for shotguns and fusion rifles. Snipers can have three. Disable all scavenger mods. No ammo drops.
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Edited by DuBChiri2: 5/27/2020 5:29:13 PMI think a good middle ground would be just turning off the effects of scavenger perks for pvp. Getting 2-3 rounds per kill when each kill only takes about 1 shot is far too profitable. Especially in modes like trials or comp where it carries over into the next round (which absolutely should be fixed) and you start the round with like 5-6 bullets. The amount of ammo really just needs to be toned down to give primaries more room and I think the game will be fine. The pace might slow a bit because of it...but it beats shoving it back in crates. I personally don't think that buffing primaries even further is a good idea because balancing then becomes far too limited. With a slower ttk, you can tune damage and # of shots more precisely to hit a certain time. With a ttk under .80 for some of these weapons...they'd be TOO strong and would give rise to range or bullet spam over anything else. Most scouts if they lost a bullet would kill in under 0.70 seconds which for a weapon that can map would be broken. Handcannons would kill even faster and in only 2 shots unless they cranked up the rpm instead (which isn't going to happen). It would be chaotic hell that would make even specials worthless due to how much easier it will be. Who cares about instantly killing someone with a shotgun if you only need to hit 2 150 rpm handcannon bullets to the head that can be shot up to over 3x the distance at a ttk value of 0.40. The 0.70-0.90 ttk mark is fine for the game, but ammo needs to be tuned for special weapons, otherwise we go to the other side of the spectrum which is buffing primaries which will ruin the game's pvp. Them giving damage improvements to primaries so they are more consistent is fine...but a ttk improvement isn't as easy on every other weapon types as it is autos because they aren't low damage rapid shot weapons.
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1 ReplyEdited by GHOST 9o5: 5/27/2020 7:01:34 AM[quote] Some proposed solutions: Special Ammo will only drop on a kill where all damage was dealt by a primary. [b]On the fence about this one. I think that abilities, though perhaps not a super should be able to drop a shot of special (we can say that supers annihilate anything a guardian was carrying, barring heavy). [/b] Scavenger perks no longer have a function in the Crucible. [b]For sure. They are insane.[/b] You now only spawn in with one round of special. [b]For sure.[/b] You cannot pick up special dropped by a teammate, instead, you can take a few seconds to dismantle the grounded ammo and prevent its future use. [b]Going to have to disagree with this one. If on the off chance that your teammate somehow doesn't use his special before he dies, you should be able to grab it. Though perhaps a one second timer to pick up the ammo would be good? Though I kind of don't like that either, because of how tedious it would eventually get.[/b] Feel free to mix and match for an actual solution.[/quote] Overall, good post with good solutions. There are definitely times when I feel like an ass for spamming snipes with my Beloved, and definitely times whether I wonder what the enemy shotgunner's primary would be if he pulled it out for 1 damn minute.
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1 ReplyEdited by an Ape with a d2 addiction: 5/27/2020 7:14:10 AMYes. OHK guns are inherently stronger and that scales expotentially the longer the competing gun's TTKs are. D2 primary TTKs are long, so OHK guns are extremely strong. There's way too much special ammo available currently. What the most obnoxious special archetype's depends on the platform and skill bracket, but the universal experience is that everybody's playing around special weapon OHK killzones all the time. It's not a thing of rare opportunity for them or accidental mispositioning from you. It's the default because special ammo's so abundant the entire lobby's maining it and there's realistically almost never a need to worry about running out. I think your solutions or some mix of them are good. Personally I'd like to see a sandbox where you spawn with 1 OHK ammo, kills can only ever grant 1 OHK ammo and maybe only primary kills could grant OHK ammo. The first 2 would reduce the error margin in OHK shot spamming and last one would truly promote primary play. [spoiler][i]Instead of primaries being secondaries.[/i][/spoiler]
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2 RepliesEdited by vxvxTITANxvxv: 5/27/2020 3:11:36 PMIt's fine in PvE. I pretty much only die by shotguns in PvP. Occasional hard-scoping sniper too, while I'm shooting his face off. Snipers need to be zoomed out when you're shot like Halo. Still way more shotguns though.
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2 RepliesBro, every time I pick up a thing of Special Ammo, I get +1, what are y'all talking about?
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1 ReplyIn my opinion, they just need to get rid of scavenger perks
