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5/21/2020 5:31:51 AM
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The reality of power creep in legendary weapons.
Just want to address the idea of power creep as it pertains to legendary weapons. As I see it, there are only a few weapons within the legendary category that can be perceived to create power creep as it pertains to building challenging end game activities. Those are:
Recluse
Revoker
Wendigo GL3
The mountaintop
Maybe 21% delirium but unlikely
Maybe Loaded question but unlikely
No other legendary weapons tip any scales in favor of the player or create balancing issues that could be considered power creep in my opinion. Its important to understand this aspect, power creep is not popularity or usage, it’s simply a weapon that creates balancing issues from a design perspective. Weapons may be more popular or efficient for a number of reasons, but they do not create power creep that causes design issues. Power creep is real, but it almost always stems from exotics (I remember crotas end, no gjallarhorn, no team...).
So the idea that power creep creates a necessity to sunset all legendary weapons instead of balancing 4-6 weapons seems pretty far fetched. Even the workload required to balance these few weapons is most likely less than the sun setting workload.
If that logic follows, what Bungie is really saying with sun setting weapons is that they want the players to use their new weapons and not the older weapons they have been using. It seems very odd to me to prefer to sunset all legendary weapons because 4-6 were intentionally made to outclass others if not for this purpose.
I also believe that If Bungie was planning to release new, exciting perks, you most likely wouldn’t see sun setting as an issue as the thought would be these new perks will address the diversity of weapons used. In my opinion, it’s more likely you’ll see a new pulse rifle that functions exactly like bygones for example, and has a near identical perk pool, just with a new name.
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Yeah this game really sucks
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Edited by LocoToopa: 5/23/2020 9:10:05 PMDidn't you know? Power creep is a myth, just like covid-19 and the earth being a sphere.
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The reason why we cant use other weapons is because think about a grandmaster nightfall. Shotgun require you to get close and with 1 shot melees and stomp mechanics, it is impossible. Snipers have been reviving nerfs preventing 1 shot headshots. Fusion rifles in those strikes either dont have enough range or ammo to be effective. Then keep in mind that exotics are the most powerful weapons. Eriana for barrier, xenophage, divinity, Izanagis burden. The game leaves of with very little options.
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15 Replies"Power Creep" does not exist. Balancing the game around LIGHT LEVEL, is the whole problem. Light level is the WORST CONCEPT for progression I have ever encountered in a video game, in my entire 40 years of gaming. There is, ZERO reason, why a gun should get more powerful, based on an arbitrary number, that stops being useful, at a specific number, and then only gains a 000.385% increase per level. Not sure what game, power creep has been seen in, maybe Dungeons and Dragons, where everything NEEDS a number, because players use Dice to generate random math problems. How is it, that crucible can ignore Light Level, yet the carrot is Light level? For scaling on enemies? Bungie, you messed this aspect of the game up badly. You don't scale enemies in a game like this... you just don't. You ADD more in quantity, or you add DIFFERENT enemies... You don't slap a x10 multiplier on an enemy, and try to explain how THESE GUYS ARE TOUGHER BECAUSE RAID... I can tell you right now, if you put the RAID RANK-AND-FILE enemies into the main campaign, we wouldn't even be playing this game, because the FALLEN would have wiped us out, or the HIVE, or whatever. Stop trying so hard, to make the game challenging, by adding Artificial Difficulty. Add CHALLENGE. [i]Hint: Orb puzzles are LAZY AF.[/i] [b]Try something else... and no, you can't just call them something else.[/b]
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Been saying this all along.... Another question I had is, how is grinding for new gear doing 3 year old content going to be engaging and fun? Especially if that item has a shelf life of 12 months.
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Good post. 👍
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It's a balancing problem. Sometimes nerfs are necessary, like with Recluse. Look at shadowkeep: Recluse was nerfed and other SMGs became viable. Shadowkeep itself added like 2 or 3 new SMGs that are as good as Recluse. Even now with the auto buffs, there are many viable options in the meta and there has been for awhile. No need to make a weapons and armor useless in the most important activities in the game when a few balance patches can easily change a meta.
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2 RepliesSunsetting is their way of removing some weapons from the endgame while letting some players keep their "power fantasy" in most other game modes. Long story short, all the weapons you mentioned will still dominate in everything that isn't endgame content.... which completely defeats the purpose of sunsetting them lol. Bungie just needs to bite the bullet, apologize for introducing broken weapons that were ridiculously hard to get, then nerf them. Sure, I love mountaintop and it took me ages to get. But I'd rather mountaintop be neutered than lose the ability to use all my of favorite black armory weapons in endgame content.
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1 ReplyMormegil132 you make some valid points and i agree that eververse should be removed from this game. But Whether we wanted it or not, we’ve stepped into a war with the Cabal on Mars. So let’s get to taking out their command, one by one. Valus Ta’aurc. From what I can gather he commands the Siege Dancers from an Imperial Land Tank outside of Rubicon. He's well protected, but with the right team, we can punch through those defences, take this beast out, and break their grip on Freehold.
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Add the og pinnacle perks to the drop pool but make it like 5% drop rate.
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Hit it on the head. They only want players to use new weapons so they show the shareholders that they've done something. Their game needs content not loot
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2 RepliesI agree, the power creep with exotics is much more prominent, and that won’t go away. They introduce strong exotics from the start (izanagis), then nerf them. Or, they buff exotics/underused weapons (xenophage), and then nerf them (hasn’t happened but we know it will). Whats even more embarrassing is when they bring back D1 exotics in a stronger state than what they were in D1, realize they’re too strong, and then nerf them the same way they were brought down in the prior game repeating the same buff/nerf cycle (whisper, sleeper).
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2 Repliesthe fact that exotics aren't being sunset completely destroys the "power creep" argument. eriana's vow will continue to be the best nightfall weapon until bungie makes something better (power creep) or nerfs it (balance). lol it's a crock.
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10 RepliesEdited by Systamatik: 5/21/2020 8:18:09 PMBy definition every single Pinnacle and Exotic in the game is an example of Power Creep. Which is why I absolutely hate the term and should not be involved in game design. If everything is on an equal playing field, then none of it matters. Honest question, if a weapon with a quest tied to it did not provide some kind of advantage, would you still grind for it?
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4 RepliesA good case of power creep is Midnight Coup. For year 1 it was dominant for hand cannon users, a year later Spare Rations comes out and does everything Midnight does but better. Midnight had rampage and outlaw for its main appeal, Spare has random rolls which outshines its predecessor like Rapid Hit and multikill clip. Inaugural Address a strong pulse rifle got outclassed by Bygones, Mindbenders just got replaced by Felwinters. Power creep doesn’t happen right away, it happens gradually overtime. Power creep if handled properly can be healthy for a game which can be done by acquiring powerful guns by raids or other difficult activities and makes said activities worth doing, not everyone (casuals who can’t do them) are going to be angry but you need incentive for doing difficult stuff. Just my take on the topic and I’m sure a lot are going to disagree
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[quote]Just want to address the idea of power creep as it pertains to legendary weapons. As I see it, there are only a few weapons within the legendary category that can be perceived to create power creep as it pertains to building challenging end game activities. Those are: Recluse Revoker Wendigo GL3 The mountaintop Maybe 21% delirium but unlikely Maybe Loaded question but unlikely No other legendary weapons tip any scales in favor of the player or create balancing issues that could be considered power creep in my opinion. Its important to understand this aspect, power creep is not popularity or usage, it’s simply a weapon that creates balancing issues from a design perspective. Weapons may be more popular or efficient for a number of reasons, but they do not create power creep that causes design issues. Power creep is real, but it almost always stems from exotics (I remember crotas end, no gjallarhorn, no team...). So the idea that power creep creates a necessity to sunset all legendary weapons instead of balancing 4-6 weapons seems pretty far fetched. Even the workload required to balance these few weapons is most likely less than the sun setting workload. If that logic follows, what Bungie is really saying with sun setting weapons is that they want the players to use their new weapons and not the older weapons they have been using. It seems very odd to me to prefer to sunset all legendary weapons because 4-6 were intentionally made to outclass others if not for this purpose. I also believe that If Bungie was planning to release new, exciting perks, you most likely wouldn’t see sun setting as an issue as the thought would be these new perks will address the diversity of weapons used. In my opinion, it’s more likely you’ll see a new pulse rifle that functions exactly like bygones for example, and has a near identical perk pool, just with a new name.[/quote] None of these represented power creep I would say, maybe except recluse. Recluse- became dominant in part due to lunas howl and NF nerfs. It was an upgrade and creep in pve though. Revoker- beloved actually used more in season of opulence, so no creep. Mountaintop- only became meta due to ep shotty and trench barrel nerfs, so no creep. Loaded question- see mountaintop. 21 percent delirium- mgs were nerfed into the ground with drifter and hammerhead was better in gambit so no nerf. Wendigo- swarm was in the game since forsaken and did more damage and was void, so no creep.
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Edited by TheOtherGuy: 5/21/2020 10:01:24 AMI barely use any of those. I usually ran over 30 different weapons in a week. I use those that i like and feel good to use, no matter if it is the best or the worst weapon in the game. Power creep is non-existent for me and sunsetting gear is the most stupid thing i can think of. This only happens because of stupid streamers and try-hards who ran the same 3 weapons in every activity over and over again.
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2 RepliesBungie never said there was power creep! They said they risked power creep, if they made weapons better than the existing meta. Knowing not every one has the meta weapons, and that even if you have them you do not ALWAYS use just those weapons, the risk is just an excuse for the following 2 reasons: 1) the more the players have to grind gear the more time in game they have to send. The time played metric is the favorite of WOW. 2) the eververse store will be where you go to acquire the materials needed to transmog gear. Those materials will be available for in game resources (more grinding), or silver, (more real cash). The real goal is to sell the game to investors as a good bet for their money. Being able to show an increase in time played or in revenue earned, nets better quarter over quarter profits. The false idea is that because Johnny Doe plays 10 more hours a week than he used to, is not the same as having 10 more players spend an hour in game. It is the same amount of time; but what is really better, 1 player spending more time in game or more players spending a little time in game? Wow went for the more time per player, and it cost them 5 million subs or more. That loss of revenue can never be made up in the cash shop. Once you push players hard enough to quit, they stay gone for good.
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4 Replies#WhenYouDontActuallyKnowWhatPowerCreepIs
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2 RepliesI doubt Revoker is capable of powercreep. It's pretty much a crutch for people who aren't good at sniping and there are many more options.
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Missed the point. There is a reason why all those weapons are pinnacles. The legendary weapon system for D2 was build to provide PVP BALANCE. Not pve power progression. It’s why the community was so unhappy with it in Y1, and why we feel the game is unrewarding this year. Bungie went outside of this system through exotics and pinnacles to try to get us that additional power....but as you can see...broke the game in the process. All those wespins rocketed to the top of the power pyramid and never would have left (in our current system without being nerfed into the ground). Now we are basically back to the legendary weapon system, since pinnacles are out of the game. So the issue is that power creep through this system isn’t possible because it was designed to LIMIT player power. [b]But we’re all getting bored and frustrated because now there is now power to chase...[/b] And if Bungie tries again to add it in the current system, they just recreate the power creep problem over time. So they are trapped in a design corner with no way out....and are learning THE HARD WAY...why no other devs let you pile up all the games loot and drag it behind you forever. Sunsetting is the only way out of this trap and to be able to start making power weapons again.
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Edited by iDare2Defy: 5/21/2020 5:43:21 PMI somehow don’t see them ever releasing another gun like Mountaintop. Recluse I can do without. I’ve already moved on from it since they nerfed it into normalcy. But my MT can’t be replaced that easily. It’s really gonna suck losing that. They better have some good ass new perks or buff the shit out of snipers because I’m not going back to just using shotguns for everything.
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None of those weapons create any power creep anymore. Revoker is a great PVP sniper but Beloved is better in every way except for the perk. Recluse has been nerfed and is nothing special now. Mtop aint a problem without auto-reload. Wendigo is only good for a couple of shots, full court/spike nades GLs are good for every shot. 21% is an ad clearing weapon and its a heavy, no power creep there. Loaded Question not even gonna comment on that one, its just a fusion rifle with good ad clear. Everything has been nerfed, there is no power creep anymore in this game. Even so the weapons were never the problem, it was the autoreload and the super regen that made things super easy.
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5 RepliesMost of the weapons in seasons 1-8 are not overly powerful or used very much, yet they're getting sunset first. I think sunsetting acts as a refresh as well for all the activities & vendors that fall into the season 1-8, plus adding more pinnacle type weapons into the game that only have a short lifespan.
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Yes you can avoid power creep by completely neutering all of the interesting guns and capping the max efficiency to just Feeding Frenzy, Multikill Clip, Firing Line, etc. but now you create a new problem—how do they make loot you want to chase that feels worthwhile in this limited system? People will say “make new perks” but this ends up with the same problem. If the perks aren’t objectively better in at least a decent portion of scenarios, it will be deemed useless by most players. But if it is objectively better, you’ve introduced power creep. Sunsetting allows for weapons like Recluse to be made without worrying about the potential power creep. We see them starting this with Felwinter’s Lie and we saw them do this in Destiny 1, specifically with raid weapons (among others) and their unique perks/rolls. Weapons get room to be strong and arguably overpowered for their lifespan [b]because[/b] they have a lifespan and this makes players want to chase loot. Think about all the people that said they were leaving after vanilla D1 when they realized their gear wouldn’t be useful, and The Taken King, and D2 vanilla, but then look at the numbers. People really weren’t leaving for those reasons. Why? They made weapons that were desirable (in D2’s case it is a little different obviously) and people quickly forgot about their old stuff. Sunsetting works when good, powerful loot comes to replace the old. The big question is: will Bungie deliver? Many people will point to history and get emotional and say Bungie will not deliver. But historically, they have delivered when they sunset loot. I’m not saying they will now, I’m just saying people need to look at this objectively and consider all the possibilities with an open mind. I know I won’t be sucking off Bungie if they royally F this up and just reskin all of our current stuff with the exact same rolls. But this should be seen as an opportunity to get amazing weapons like Chaos Dogma or Black Hammer or (for players of this game) Recluse back into the game’s loot pool and to eliminate this deep focus on “min/max-ing” that these past seasons have had. Because most players don’t care about something that is 0.0001% better.
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Edited by draycole: 5/21/2020 12:27:36 PMI see it as more of a perk reset. New perks aren't gonna be able to compete with stuff like rampage and outlaw. Because those will always be the go to pve perks. Why grind the new gun if it doesn't have damage or reload perks?
