This is the same exact problem from all the Exotic armor nerfs a while back. Nerfing the strongest perks does absolutely nothing. Nerfing Rampage will not make me use Hip Fire Grip. Nerfing Kill Clip will not make me use Threat Detector. Nerfing Swashbuckler won't make me use Zen Moment. Do you see the problem here? Making the top tier perks worse does not, in any scenario, make the bottom tier perks better. At the end of the day, the most vital tool in Destiny is damage. Nothing else supersedes DPS in this game.

This math is not correct. Particularly in regard to the precision dmg nerf. Currently a critical hit on a red-bar enemy does about 3x dmg, compared to a body-shot, while on a yellow-bar it does 1.5x dmg. And in Shadowkeep they are not nerfing this by 50%, they are nerfing by 100%, i.e. they're removing the double dmg multiplier on red-bars, compared to yellow-bars. So your example should read (I'm rounding): Base damage * precision multiplier * Kill Clip (No kill clip, red-bar enemy) 100*3.0*1 = 300 [current sandbox] 125*1.5*1 = 188 [shadowkeep sandbox] (Kill Clip, red-bar enemy) 100*3.0*1.5= 450 [current sandbox] 125*1.5*1.3= 244 [shadowkeep sandbox] As you can see, even without kill-clip in the current sandbox you will do more dmg to a red-bar enemy than when you have kill-clip activated in Shadowkeep. We are most certainly being nerfed when it comes to red-bar enemies, but against yellow-bars this is not the case. I actually don't think that's a bad thing, but want to be accurate about the changes.

1+1= you're all still gonna play no matter what, so STFU and enjoy Shadowkeep.

I think your numbers may be off because of a basic misunderstanding of the nerf. They aren't halving the precision bonus %. They are removing a 2x overall damage bonus. Basically figure out how much precision damage a major would take. A red bar will currently take twice that damage. Current (1.5 precision) Majors, 100×1.5=150 Minors, 100×1.5×2=300 Post nerf (30% base buff, 1.5 precision) Majors 130×1.5=195 Minors 130×1.5=195 This math is not correct. Particularly in regard to the precision dmg nerf. Currently a critical hit on a red-bar enemy does about 3x dmg, compared to a body-shot, while on a yellow-bar it does 1.5x dmg. And in Shadowkeep they are not nerfing this by 50%, they are nerfing by 100%, i.e. they're removing the double dmg multiplier on red-bars, compared to yellow-bars. So your example should read (I'm rounding): Base damage * precision multiplier * Kill Clip (No kill clip, red-bar enemy) 100*3.0*1 = 300 [current sandbox] 125*1.5*1 = 188 [shadowkeep sandbox] (Kill Clip, red-bar enemy) 100*3.0*1.5= 450 [current sandbox] 125*1.5*1.3= 244 [shadowkeep sandbox] As you can see, even without kill-clip in the current sandbox you will do more dmg to a red-bar enemy than when you have kill-clip activated in Shadowkeep. We are most certainly being nerfed when it comes to red-bar enemies, but against yellow-bars this is not the case. I actually don't think that's a bad thing, but want to be accurate about the changes. Good post, bad fact checking = misinformation = bad post. This has been posted multiple times in the responses already, but posting again for increased visibility. Currently minors take double the normal precision damage which is independent from the precision multiplier inherent to the weapon. The change to minor precision damage affects the 2x multiplier to precision damage minors currently have (or rather remove it), not the precision multiplier on the weapon. Your example should be as follows (assuming everything else is accurate): No kill clip 100*1.5*2 = 300 125*1.5*1 = 187.5 (Base damage * precision) * minor precision damage Kill Clip 100*1.5*1.5*2= 450 125*1.333*1.5*1= ~249.9 (base damage * kill clip * precision) * minor precision damage Given that your post has received a lot of traction, you really should fix your post. Highly voted post spreading misinformation is a big no-no. Gotten many requests to make this its own thread. I’d like to mention the 20-40% increase in damage to all primary weapons and snipers in PvE. If you work out the damage, it will be roughly the same. Rampage is being adjusted to be more like pvp in PvE as far as how much damage is boosted. Take it like this. Say right now, Autos are dealing 100 damage per bullet in PvE. - One stack of Rampage Grants +35% Damage. 100 +35% = 135 Damage. - two stacks Grants 50%. 100 +50% = 150. - three stacks Grants 65% Damage. 100 +65% = 165 Damage. Now Autos are getting a +25% Increase to base damage on the low end. And Rampage will grant 10%, 25%, and 35% bonus on activation. Now Autos will be dealing 125 damage at base in PvE on the low end. - 1 stack of Rampage will now grant 10%. 125 + 10% =137 Damage. - 2 stacks will Grant 25%. 125 +25% = 156.25. - 3 stacks will grant 35%. 125 +35% = 168.75. As you can see we’ll be doing slightly more damage after the update even with the nerfs to damage perks. This was more to reduce our dependency on these perks and allow other perks to flourish. Kill clip: currently Grants +50% Damage on activation. Keeping our example of an auto dealing 100 damage now. - 100 + 50% = 150 Damage. - 125 + 33% = 166.25 Damage. Swashbuckler: currently Grants 13% per stack in PvE and up to 33% in pvp. - 100 + 13 = 113 - 100 + 26 = 126 - 100 + 39 = 139 - 100 + 52 = 152 - 100 + 65 = 165 Now: - 125 + 6.6 = 133.25 - 125 + 13.2 = 141.5 - 125 + 19.8 = 149.75 - 125 + 26.4 = 161.352 - 125 + 33 = 166.25 Precision damage increases with damage as it is a multiplier. The nerf to precision damage reduced the multiplier by 50%. Using an auto Rifle, 100 Damage per shot as usual. Rapid fire AR’s have a precision Damage multiplier of 1.5. Now reduced to 1.25 with the change (a 50% reduction in bonus damage.) Base damage * precision multiplier * Kill Clip (No kill clip) 100*1.5*1 = 150 125*1.25*1 = 156.25 (Kill Clip) 100*1.5*1.5= 225 125*1.25*1.333= 208.3 The only time you’re loosing damage is at the higher stacks of a Damage bonus. This will only noticeably effect kill clip, 3x ramapage, and 4&5x Swashbuckler. At that point it’s just maybe 1 more rapid Fire AR bullet to kill. Not really noticeable. Not saying it’s a great thing for them to do, but it’s not the end of the world. People need to pay attention to the total view before jumping to conclusions. If anything we need to wait until shadowkeep comes out before we go crazy. This just shows that the damage boosting perks will still be just as strong. Bungie is just making it easier for us to pick things like zen moment, Field Prep or Triple Tap over a Damage perk instead of just tossing out the weapon. I think your numbers may be off because of a basic misunderstanding of the nerf. They aren't halving the precision bonus %. They are removing a 2x overall damage bonus. Basically figure out how much precision damage a major would take. A red bar will currently take twice that damage. Current (1.5 precision) Majors, 100×1.5=150 Minors, 100×1.5×2=300 Post nerf (30% base buff, 1.5 precision) Majors 130×1.5=195 Minors 130×1.5=195 This math is not correct. Particularly in regard to the precision dmg nerf. Currently a critical hit on a red-bar enemy does about 3x dmg, compared to a body-shot, while on a yellow-bar it does 1.5x dmg. And in Shadowkeep they are not nerfing this by 50%, they are nerfing by 100%, i.e. they're removing the double dmg multiplier on red-bars, compared to yellow-bars. So your example should read (I'm rounding): Base damage * precision multiplier * Kill Clip (No kill clip, red-bar enemy) 100*3.0*1 = 300 [current sandbox] 125*1.5*1 = 188 [shadowkeep sandbox] (Kill Clip, red-bar enemy) 100*3.0*1.5= 450 [current sandbox] 125*1.5*1.3= 244 [shadowkeep sandbox] As you can see, even without kill-clip in the current sandbox you will do more dmg to a red-bar enemy than when you have kill-clip activated in Shadowkeep. We are most certainly being nerfed when it comes to red-bar enemies, but against yellow-bars this is not the case. I actually don't think that's a bad thing, but want to be accurate about the changes. Good post, bad fact checking = misinformation = bad post. This has been posted multiple times in the responses already, but posting again for increased visibility. Currently minors take double the normal precision damage which is independent from the precision multiplier inherent to the weapon. The change to minor precision damage affects the 2x multiplier to precision damage minors currently have (or rather remove it), not the precision multiplier on the weapon. Your example should be as follows (assuming everything else is accurate): No kill clip 100*1.5*2 = 300 125*1.5*1 = 187.5 (Base damage * precision) * minor precision damage Kill Clip 100*1.5*1.5*2= 450 125*1.333*1.5*1= ~249.9 (base damage * kill clip * precision) * minor precision damage Given that your post has received a lot of traction, you really should fix your post. Highly voted post spreading misinformation is a big no-no. Gotten many requests to make this its own thread. I’d like to mention the 20-40% increase in damage to all primary weapons and snipers in PvE. If you work out the damage, it will be roughly the same. Rampage is being adjusted to be more like pvp in PvE as far as how much damage is boosted. Take it like this. Say right now, Autos are dealing 100 damage per bullet in PvE. - One stack of Rampage Grants +35% Damage. 100 +35% = 135 Damage. - two stacks Grants 50%. 100 +50% = 150. - three stacks Grants 65% Damage. 100 +65% = 165 Damage. Now Autos are getting a +25% Increase to base damage on the low end. And Rampage will grant 10%, 25%, and 35% bonus on activation. Now Autos will be dealing 125 damage at base in PvE on the low end. - 1 stack of Rampage will now grant 10%. 125 + 10% =137 Damage. - 2 stacks will Grant 25%. 125 +25% = 156.25. - 3 stacks will grant 35%. 125 +35% = 168.75. As you can see we’ll be doing slightly more damage after the update even with the nerfs to damage perks. This was more to reduce our dependency on these perks and allow other perks to flourish. Kill clip: currently Grants +50% Damage on activation. Keeping our example of an auto dealing 100 damage now. - 100 + 50% = 150 Damage. - 125 + 33% = 166.25 Damage. Swashbuckler: currently Grants 13% per stack in PvE and up to 33% in pvp. - 100 + 13 = 113 - 100 + 26 = 126 - 100 + 39 = 139 - 100 + 52 = 152 - 100 + 65 = 165 Now: - 125 + 6.6 = 133.25 - 125 + 13.2 = 141.5 - 125 + 19.8 = 149.75 - 125 + 26.4 = 161.352 - 125 + 33 = 166.25 Precision damage increases with damage as it is a multiplier. The nerf to precision damage reduced the multiplier by 50%. Using an auto Rifle, 100 Damage per shot as usual. Rapid fire AR’s have a precision Damage multiplier of 1.5. Now reduced to 1.25 with the change (a 50% reduction in bonus damage.) Base damage * precision multiplier * Kill Clip (No kill clip) 100*1.5*1 = 150 125*1.25*1 = 156.25 (Kill Clip) 100*1.5*1.5= 225 125*1.25*1.333= 208.3 The only time you’re loosing damage is at the higher stacks of a Damage bonus. This will only noticeably effect kill clip, 3x ramapage, and 4&5x Swashbuckler. At that point it’s just maybe 1 more rapid Fire AR bullet to kill. Not really noticeable.

Neonsox42 You make some valid points and i agree that eververse must be removed from this game but, Whether we wanted it or not, we've stepped into a war with the Cabal on Mars. So let's get to taking out their command, one by one. Valus Ta'aurc. From what I can gather, he commands the Siege Dancers from an Imperial Land Tank just outside of Rubicon. He's well protected, but with the right team, we can punch through those defenses, take this beast out, and break their grip on Freehold.

I have a [b]PSA[/b] for everyone complaining and crying over weapon damage nerfs to a thrall..and it is... Punch them [spoiler]😱[/spoiler]

Im not sure the math is correct, but we will see next week. I fear slower super recharge rates will make for feeling less powerful. Anyone for D2 Y1? No thanks that was some boring shite right there........ I hope Bungie have not reverted to D2 Y1 levels...........

[quote]Using an auto Rifle, 100 Damage per shot as usual. Rapid fire AR’s have a precision Damage multiplier of 1.5. Now reduced to 1.25 with the change (a 50% reduction in bonus damage.) Base damage * precision multiplier * Kill Clip (No kill clip) 100*1.5*1 = 150 125*1.25*1 = 156.25 (Kill Clip) 100*1.5*1.5= 225 125*1.25*1.333= 208.3[/quote] This part is COMPLETELY incorrect. Currently, each weapon has its own crit modifier and each enemy also has its own crit modifier. For minors, this modifier is 2x. In Shadowkeep, it becomes 1x. You are absolutely right about Rapid Fire Auto rifles having a crit modifier of 1.5, but this is the base modifier. Against minors, you will do 3x more damage when hitting crits because of their modifiers. Redoing your maths correctly, you get: Base damage * weapon precision multiplier * enemy precision multiplier * Kill Clip (No kill clip) 100*1.5*2*1 = 300 125*1.5*1 = 187.5 (Kill Clip) 100*1.5*2*1.5= 450 125*1.5*1*1.333= ~249.9 We are getting SIGNIFICANTLY nerfed by the halving crit damage and you can see it very clearly if you watch videos that have come out from content creators playing at Bungie. 110 Handcannons won't even 1 shot adds anymore.

Informative But We all know [i]the[/i] [b]only[/b] true [i]Destiny[/i] number is [b]0.04%[/b]

I think your numbers may be off because of a basic misunderstanding of the nerf. They aren't halving the precision bonus %. They are removing a 2x overall damage bonus. Basically figure out how much precision damage a major would take. A red bar will currently take twice that damage. Current (1.5 precision) Majors, 100×1.5=150 Minors, 100×1.5[u][b]×2[/b][/u]=300 Post nerf (30% base buff, 1.5 precision) Majors 130×1.5=195 Minors 130×1.5=195

All minors are getting their precision damage modifiers reduced from 2x to 1x.

I'm curious as to where you got the multipliers for damage from in regards to the precision multiplier. I was bored so I went out of my way a while back to test the precision multiplier on 600 rpm autos and I found it to be around 1.57x base damage against majors (it's actually a little higher, but who cares). Against minors however, since it currently doubles our damage to the head, the actual precision multiplier was 3.14x base damage. Testing confirmed my confusion when it was complete. Doubling the precision damage I did to majors equaled the damage dealt to minors. We aren't losing 50% of our damage, we are losing 100% of our damage and simply adding 30% to base damage. Meaning that if I did 100 damage and using the current precision multiplier against majors (which tests proved to be EXACTLY half the multiplier that it was against minors) you would only deal 157 damage to the head without the 30% buff. With the 30% buff, the damage you would now deal is 204 damage (rounded) to the head of a minor enemy but our base damage increased to 130, which is a buff to bodyshot damage. So with our multipliers currently being doubled exactly, we are doing 314 damage instead, which means it's a net precision damage nerf of around 53%. This means that even with 3 stacks of nerfed rampage, our damage is still going to be lower than it is currently against minors. I used the lost sectors for my tests because there's no diversity in light level among majors like there is in other activities (which would give you slightly more varying numbers).

Thankful for this. Unfortunately, I feel it's going to fall on deaf ears. I was literally saying the same thing back during the great exotic "nerf". Everybody was losing their minds saying that Orpheus, Skull of Dire Ahamkara, Whisper, etc were going to be useless after they got nerfed, yet I still find them along with all the other exotics that got "nerfed" to still be my go to weapons.

What about desperado? Can you do the math on that?

Someone tell me what the answers are to the guns I need to start using for Shadowkeep plz