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Edited by AbsolutZeroGI: 8/15/2019 5:31:14 PM
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Dispelling the myth that Well needs nerfed

A LOT of people don't understand how math works. 1. A well adds 35% damage per player and it does not stack. If a fireteam of 6 people deal a total of 1000 damage, the well increases that to 1350 damage. If each guardian is doing 1000 damage, each guardian does 1350 damage x 6 = 8100 damage, 35% higher than the 6000 they would've done without a well. You're not doing 210% more damage and percentages don't "add up" like that you uneducated morons. 2. "It makes the game worse because all you do is sit in a well and fire" Inaccurate. Bungie keeps creating encounters where the most logical thing to do is sit in a well and spam fire. Nerfing it doesn't make encounters anymore difficult, simply longer because guardians are dealing less damage. In fact, with a worse well, you're just spamming the fire button for a longer period of time, making the encounter more tedious. In D1, raid bosses and mechanics forced movement frequently. Well doesn't work in King's Fall or Wrath of the Machine because you have to run around and do shit basically the whole time. It works in EOW because the boss' crit spot faces one direction, it doesn't move, and neither do you for the whole damage phase. *Edit* In the instances where well would've worked in D1, people DID use Titan bubbles which were functionally identical. It buffed weapons making for quicker encounters and made you invulnerable to damage. The only difference was the 19 pixel strafe to get into and out of the Bubble. Nobody called for nerfs to the Bubble because "every raid encounter needs a bubble!". Stop bringing it up, you will lose that comparison. 3. "It's broken or whatever the non warlock mains keep saying " There's a video of a hunter one shot meleeing a raid boss to death. There are videos of 6 hunters killing Calus and finishing EOW in under 15 seconds with celestial nighthawk and golden gun spam. Some dumb ass streamer wants to talk about a well of radiance that helps guardians finish an event approximately 35% faster and THAT'S the broken thing Bungie fixes? Sorry, but no. Hunters have been leaning on Celestial Nighthawk since D1 and do things with it that warlocks can only dream about. You can break various aspects of this game with all characters. 4. "it's still broken cuz you can one phase bosses" We were one phasing every raid encounter back in Y1 with regular rifts before well ever existed and nobody complained then. You can one phase any strike boss with a well coordinated fireteam without a warlock present at all. Blinding Wells aren't any harder without them and, frankly, the only reason they're useful in Leviathan is because of the reload mechanic with Lunas while shooting skulls during the Calus encounter. 5. "Something something warlocks are OP" You can still beat a prestige EOW final encounter in under 20 seconds with 6 hunters. Can't do that with 6 warlocks. Careful where you toss your OP badge, idiots. Celestial Nighthawk + one guy to tether with Orpheus Rig was the original one phase cheese and you can still mostly do it. 6. "Phoenix Protocol means infinite rifts!" No, you (the warlock) have to kill/assist mobs to generate the new super energy. If there are none (or very few), you get no super energy and it's a useless exotic. Never mind that most self respecting warlocks wear Lunafaction boots to raids and have since year 1, before well ever existed. The infinite well trick only works in the blind well and that's assuming you put it in the right place and get bullets in most of the bad guys that appear. The exotic doesn't just give you free super energy for existing. It's not Bernie Sanders armor. 7. "You're functionally invincible in a well" In PvE, maybe. It's a super after all. They're not called "mediocres". However, in PvP, you absolutely are not invincible. It being mostly useless in pvp because of the fast TTK is why lost of us use nova bombs or the other solar super. 7. "Datto is popular and everything he says is right." Datto gets paid money to play a game you all paid for and play without monetary gain. He is not you, he does not represent you, and his views only serve himself and his popularity. They should NEVER be a guide Bungie uses to dictate mechanics to the rest of the player base, none of whom play the game as often or [i][u]for the same reasons[/u][/i] as a damn streamer. This is his job. It is our hobby. He does not and will never want the same things we do. 8. "Nerf Lunafaction boots" If you nerf Lunas, then OEM, Celestial Nighthawk, and basically every other good exotic better -blam!-ing well be on that list too. Either you burn everybody or leave well enough alone. The effects people whine about are all a combination of an exotic piece of gear and a SUPER. the well isn't infinite without exotic armor and it doesn't reload your weapons without exotic boots. Take into consideration that most players don't get paid money to play the game like Datto or play the game for 4000 hours like many of you. A lot of people don't have those exotics and are staring down the barrel of a super being made pointless for a reason they never got to experience. 9. "Well Datto has a point" Nobody gave a shit about Lunas, wells, or rifts before Datto posted his bullshit rage bait nonsense video about it. Nobody cared if a warlock had a well and Lunas. These were not issues that needed to be fixed. It's just a bored streamer in mid August playing a game nobody is gonna care about for another 2 months with no content to make so he invented a problem and complained about it. Content creators in YouTube do that literally all the time. It's not a real problem, he just needs a paycheck and chose Wells to complain about this time. Nothing he said made any actual sense to a warlock main who actually plays this game. 10. "Well something something pinnacle events well of radiance" You're just salty that nobody cares about your rally barracades anymore. Keep in mind that this is a SUPER with an EXOTIC paired together and Titan and Hunter mains have no problems coming into this community to defend their crutches (One Eyed Mask, for instance). 11. "Bungie is gonna do it anyway" Yeah, screw that miserable company. Why would anybody buy Shadowkeep if they're gonna grind and grind for good stuff just to have it nerfed every time some whiny brat streamer makes a cry video about it. Whatever. -blam!- you, Bungie. 12. "It makes the game boring" No, the game is already boring. Well just made it faster and easier, which is what a Super is supposed to -blam!-ing do. Sure the argument is made that it forces players to play somewhat differently, the fact remains that exotic + super combinations are used as crutches by all subclasses in all aspects of the game. It's disingenuous to single out solar-locks with Lunas when Titans and Hunters also have broken ass mechanics with exotics and supers. Why not change how they play too? Or has this dwindling community somehow, some way not gotten tired of Jotunn noobs or sliding-shotgun titans with OEMs? *edit* Adding one more 13. "It adds variety to the game" This one is difficult to argue in a vacuum because a lot of us do use Well in the same circumstances (mostly raid encounters). However, there are many items, supers, and mechanics that dictate how people play. OEM + Dusk Rock Blues Titans are still an overwhelming favorite for PvP players. Machine Guns and 1k Voices are immensely popular by invaders in Gambit. Hell, guardians cheese Flashpoint by intentionally not doing the public event (and not letting anyone do it) so they can fast travel back and redo the event a second time. People will skip to the end of Last Wish to farm 1k voices and not even do the rest of the raid. And the complaint is that Well reduces the number of ways people play? Thus, the idea of Nerfing well for the sake of "variety" while ignoring all of the other game breaks, cheeses, and gear/supers that dictate how people play is basically just an absurd witch hunt dreamt up by a guy who just needed something to talk about in August when there's nothing to talk about in this game. "I like fixes as long as long as it doesn't change how I play" is a bad reason to change how thousands of people play a video game and "because a streamer said so" is not respecting the people who paid $100+ for this game and all its DLC. Streamers aren't representatives. We did not vote for them.
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  • Of course well of radiance doesn’t need nerfed. If some people, including some at Bungie, think it makes content too easy or removes the challenge then there’s a very straightforward solution. Don’t use it. Use something else instead. There’s no need for Bungie to ruin things for all of the normal or less skillful players because of the top 5-10%.

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  • Orpheusstalker here, totally agree. My Fireteam mate mains Lock and in most instances we run as a 2 man team, WoR is an essential super in many situations. Solo or a team of 2, sometimes Well is the savior of the moment. A Radiant Lock and Orpheusstalker make a hell of a team when your loadouts jive. The nerfs to these Super and Exotics are only hurting the solo players. Teams, especially the “elite” will have no problems altering and communicating with the changes. Of course those true to our class will adapt but none the less it is devaluing the class/subclass.

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    • [quote]A LOT of people don't understand how math works. 1. A well adds 35% damage per player and it does not stack. If a fireteam of 6 people deal a total of 1000 damage, the well increases that to 1350 damage. If each guardian is doing 1000 damage, each guardian does 1350 damage x 6 = 8100 damage, 35% higher than the 6000 they would've done without a well. You're not doing 210% more damage and percentages don't "add up" like that you uneducated morons. 2. "It makes the game worse because all you do is sit in a well and fire" Inaccurate. Bungie keeps creating encounters where the most logical thing to do is sit in a well and spam fire. Nerfing it doesn't make encounters anymore difficult, simply longer because guardians are dealing less damage. In fact, with a worse well, you're just spamming the fire button for a longer period of time, making the encounter more tedious. In D1, raid bosses and mechanics forced movement frequently. Well doesn't work in King's Fall or Wrath of the Machine because you have to run around and do shit basically the whole time. It works in EOW because the boss' crit spot faces one direction, it doesn't move, and neither do you for the whole damage phase. 3. "It's broken or whatever the non warlock mains keep saying " There's a video of a hunter one shot meleeing a raid boss to death. There are videos of 6 hunters killing Calus and finishing EOW in under 15 seconds with celestial nighthawk and golden gun spam. Some dumb ass streamer wants to talk about a well of radiance that helps guardians finish an event approximately 35% faster and THAT'S the broken thing Bungie fixes? Sorry, but no. Hunters have been leaning on Celestial Nighthawk since D1 and do things with it that warlocks can only dream about. You can break various aspects of this game with all characters. 4. "it's still broken cuz you can one phase bosses" We were one phasing every raid encounter back in Y1 with regular rifts before well ever existed and nobody complained then. You can one phase any strike boss with a well coordinated fireteam without a warlock present at all. Blinding Wells aren't any harder without them and, frankly, the only reason they're useful in Leviathan is because of the reload mechanic with Lunas while shooting skulls during the Calus encounter. 5. "Something something warlocks are OP" You can still beat a prestige EOW final encounter in under 20 seconds with 6 hunters. Can't do that with 6 warlocks. Careful where you toss your OP badge, idiots. Celestial Nighthawk + one guy to tether with Orpheus Rig was the original one phase cheese and you can still mostly do it. 6. "Phoenix Protocol means infinite rifts!" No, you (the warlock) have to kill/assist mobs to generate the new super energy. If there are none (or very few), you get no super energy and it's a useless exotic. Never mind that most self respecting warlocks wear Lunafaction boots to raids and have since year 1, before well ever existed. The infinite well trick only works in the blind well and that's assuming you put it in the right place and get bullets in most of the bad guys that appear. The exotic doesn't just give you free super energy for existing. It's not Bernie Sanders armor. 7. "You're functionally invincible in a well" In PvE, maybe. It's a super after all. They're not called "mediocres". However, in PvP, you absolutely are not invincible. It being mostly useless in pvp because of the fast TTK is why lost of us use nova bombs or the other solar super. 7. "Datto is popular and everything he says is right." Datto gets paid money to play a game you all paid for and play without monetary gain. He is not you, he does not represent you, and his views only serve himself and his popularity. They should NEVER be a guide Bungie uses to dictate mechanics to the rest of the player base, none of whom play the game as often or [i][u]for the same reasons[/u][/i] as a damn streamer. This is his job. It is our hobby. He does not and will never want the same things we do. 8. "Nerf Lunafaction boots" If you nerf Lunas, then OEM, Celestial Nighthawk, and basically every other good exotic better -blam!-ing well be on that list too. Either you burn everybody or leave well enough alone. The effects people whine about are all a combination of an exotic piece of gear and a SUPER. the well isn't infinite without exotic armor and it doesn't reload your weapons without exotic boots. Take into consideration that most players don't get paid money to play the game like Datto or play the game for 4000 hours like many of you. A lot of people don't have those exotics and are staring down the barrel of a super being made pointless for a reason they never got to experience. 9. "Well Datto has a point" Nobody gave a shit about Lunas, wells, or rifts before Datto posted his bullshit rage bait nonsense video about it. Nobody cared if a warlock had a well and Lunas. These were not issues that needed to be fixed. It's just a bored streamer in mid August playing a game nobody is gonna care about for another 2 months with no content to make so he invented a problem and complained about it. Content creators in YouTube do that literally all the time. It's not a real problem, he just needs a paycheck and chose Wells to complain about this time. Nothing he said made any actual sense to a warlock main who actually plays this game. 10. "Well something something pinnacle events well of radiance" You're just salty that nobody cares about your rally barracades anymore. Keep in mind that this is a SUPER with an EXOTIC paired together and Titan and Hunter mains have no problems coming into this community to defend their crutches (One Eyed Mask, for instance). 11. "Bungie is gonna do it anyway" Yeah, screw that miserable company. Why would anybody buy Shadowkeep if they're gonna grind and grind for good stuff just to have it nerfed every time some whiny brat streamer makes a cry video about it. Whatever. -blam!- you, Bungie. 12. "It makes the game boring" No, the game is already boring. Well just made it faster and easier, which is what a Super is supposed to -blam!-ing do. Sure the argument is made that it forces players to play somewhat differently, the fact remains that exotic + super combinations are used as crutches by all subclasses in all aspects of the game. It's disingenuous to single out solar-locks with Lunas when Titans and Hunters also have broken ass mechanics with exotics and supers. Why not change how they play too? Or has this dwindling community somehow, some way not gotten tired of Jotunn noobs or sliding-shotgun titans with OEMs? *edit* Adding one more 13. "It adds variety to the game" This one is difficult to argue in a vacuum because a lot of us do use Well in the same circumstances (mostly raid encounters). However, there are many items, supers, and mechanics that dictate how people play. OEM + Dusk Rock Blues Titans are still an overwhelming favorite for PvP players. Machine Guns and 1k Voices are immensely popular by invaders in Gambit. Hell, guardians cheese Flashpoint by intentionally not doing the public event (and not letting anyone do it) so they can fast travel back and redo the event a second time. People will skip to the end of Last Wish to farm 1k voices and not even do the rest of the raid. And the complaint is that Well reduces the number of ways people play? Thus, the idea of Nerfing well for the sake of "variety" while ignoring all of the other game breaks, cheeses, and gear/supers that dictate how people play is basically just an absurd witch hunt dreamt up by a guy who just needed something to talk about in August when there's nothing to talk about in this game. "I like fixes as long as long as it doesn't change how I play" is a bad reason to change how thousands of people play a video game and "because a streamer said so" is not respecting the people who paid $100+ for this game and all its DLC. Streamers aren't representatives. We did not vote for them.[/quote] Golgoroth was the best boss encounter EVER in the history of destiny. Weapons bubble in the back!!!

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      • How does this post not have replies/likes? I guess it’s indicative of the dumbass community we have lol. Incredible.

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        • Bump.

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        • Edited by Thicc Malort: 8/15/2019 1:27:51 AM
          Point 7 is something everyone should consider, even outside of the issue at hand.(for the record, i don't think datto is completely at fault for the inbound nerf, however there's definitely some play between him and bungle behind the scenes) These people do not necessarily have our best interests in mind, rather their interests lay with their continued cash flow. Is a healthy game in their best interests? Not necessarily. What they want is the game to provide content for their viewerbase. This does not always make for a good game to play for average joe shithead like myself. With that said they are, of course, entitled to their opinions. But with the influence they wield over bungie, they can and should be criticized for it. If these are the people elected to speak for me, i'm damn well going to lay in when I feel they are out of line.

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          • I agree with a lot of what you said, but some of the opinions mixed in kinda ruined your point.

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          • Edited by Shirtless_Captain_Kirk: 8/15/2019 1:40:08 PM
            Subscribe to this guy. Unsubscribe to Datto. Thank you for not being an idiot sir. I guarantee you if this game changes based on a Datto video, I will not be buying Bungie's products anymore because I'm buying Datto's products at that point. I'm 38 years old I have actually legitimate game design experience. some dumb ass with an audience runs his mouth and gets a game changed negatively just because he has a platform no sir

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            • You know even if WoR and/or Lunafaction boots get hit with a nerf, I worry the encounters built with it in mind probably wont be fixed they will only be artificially harder due to the fact they made some of them with WoR in mind, hopefully I'm wrong and they do though. Honestly I agree that it should not be nerfed but wether we wanted it or not we've stepped into a war with the Cabal on Mars. So let's get to taking out their command, one by one. Valus Ta'aurc. From what I can gather he commands the Siege Dancers from an Imperial Land Tank outside of Rubicon. He's well protected, but with the right team, we can punch through those defenses, take this beast out, and break their grip on Freehold. Seriously though I hope they only target the auto loading feature and leave the rest alone, if people really thought the game was too easy then they should just not run the easy setup and let other players be instead of advocating for them to play the same way they do in pve, now if the call for a change was due to them thinking encounters were built with WoR in mind then that's a different story and I would agree (looking at you Reckoning). I'm also not surprised a big change like this is happening since something always fundamentally changes when a big expansion drops. I also hope the new raid has interesting encounters where you don't just stand in one place with your team and shoot since that would defeat the purpose of the possible nerf to WoR with Phoenix protocol or Lunafaction boots and rally barricade with their auto reloading features if the aim is to make us use engaging fun strategies like run chaos reach, slova bomb, etc...

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            • Excellent spinfoil hat my friend

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            • I dont really get why titans get weapons of light but we cant have well...arent they basically the same thing?

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              • No it needs a nerf. Its a constant in EVERY activity. Let it happen.

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              • Amen...to all of this!!!

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              • If anything it needs a buff. It is damn near worthless in PvP. Anyone who gets in it is at risk of being supered, heavyed, or meleed to death. It's really a nice zoned target for your enemies. In PvE it was way better when Phoenix Protocol regenned super energy quicker. Now it's just kinda 'meh' because it does help you get through the Reckoning but doesn't really get used for anything other activity.

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                • Bump

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                • Well said! Pun intended. I canceled my pre order yesterday and feel great. I will check to see how bad they nerfed Warlocks, but other than that I think I’m done with this Destiny.

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                • [quote]Dispelling the myth that Well needs nerfed[/quote] BEST post I've seen on this topic! The ONLY thing missing is [url=https://i.imgur.com/Fr8zGrt.jpg]THIS[/url] at the end 🍻

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                • Good post, my thoughts as well!

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                • Well put 👍

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                • I read the whole thing but you dropped the ball on point 2. It was very clearly stated that encounters were being designed around the well setup pretty early on. Meaning well was 100% impacting encounter design and that is the stated reasoning for it's nerfing. Almost every single post defending well seems to somehow miss this or convienantly ignore it. As for the rest of your points there are some okay responses and some trolly ones. Overall you didn't really convince me that the well setup shouldn't be nerfed.

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                  • Well said I agree 👍

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                  • Finally somebody with some sense

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                  • Well is fine. The reloading from luni boots needs to be removed or touched.

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                  • Well done.....finally some common sense. Bravo!

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                  • The sad fact is that not enough people will read this. Great post, nicely put!

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                  • I actually think it does need tuning down. It's getting boring, and makes hard encounters far too easy. I think a choice of extra damage, or healing would work. Or make the healing linked to kills attained whilst in the well.

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