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Edited by Hellekeen:
7/23/2019 10:30:09 AM
7
Mechanics are great but I don’t agree with the philosophy that every guy in the raid team
Needs to perform them . It’s not ballet . Swordbearer, relic bearer or whatever role that was, it was enough .. and i don’t think raids need to end up in that insane vault puzzle or at the final encounter when everyone needs to memorize the callouts for which eye of riven is which and where you have to shoot ..
The old structure I loved was more RPG than now .. you needed roles like a tank or a damage dealer or a super fast dude for the lamp section .. that was more my way of fun .. instead you now have the need to have swarm of raven with spike grenades and if possible an all warlock well team . -.-
Have different roles In the raids again instead of desperately trying to heavily involve everyone at the same level ..that’s not really helping and makes for a more uniformed raid team. I really think that the need to have a set of special subclasses would also help getting people to raid since if you looked for a bubble titan for the warpriest for example you haven’t been too stingy with „mkwtd 23144+ full clears, will check raid report „
Since D2 the raids especially without the two difficulty settings of D1 and especially with those stupid revive tokens and death timer have been way more tedious than they needed to be .. and i will say it explicitly ! EASIER than in D1 ..the introduction of mechanics heavy fights have lead to very easy encounters.
In kings fall or wrath of the machine I killed adds every second .. just to stay alive and not be swarmed yo death.. in CoS I walk to my knight. Melee- shotgun shotgun.. then I walk back to my spot then to the other side melee the knight as soon as it raises, shotgun shotgun ..wait again.. I never waited so much in a raid
But that raid has to be that easy since as long as you don’t know that mechanic by heath you have to pay too much attention to the sequence and the. You can’t have too many adds .. but once you memorized the pattern you can basically run the raid without looking at your screen .. you know where the enemy spawns , which one spawns, where it goes and how much time you have for a. Crystal or a well or to give the buff to someone ..
It’s Routine once you got it . The lamp section of crotas end I raced countless times and solo or with a full team this was somehow great , always .. either hide , grenade jump and sneak in the shadows , or blast and brute force everything and defend the bridge with a sniper or a bulletstorm, it’s been nice .. ^^
CoS. , well I just cleared it 4 times and tried approximately another 4 times .. and it’s either everyone knows the drill then it’s trivial or people figure it out and then it fails countless times , most of the time because people pay attention to the mechanics and forget about the adds (the very few adds)
English
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I have to say I much prefer everyone has a little pressure to preform. Do you remember Crota? Kill adds at the start and that could be your entire contribution to the fight. Meanwhile with something like Crown of Sorrow, Wrath of the Machine or Spire of Stars everyone needs to understand the raid mechanics. Everyone carries their own weight, and I know my friends who aren’t the biggest raiders appreciate this engagement more than “stand there and just shoot adds”
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Thats excatly the issue here.. raids NEED those entry level positions to engage with low level skill players and get them into raiding.. also an issue are some of those high dps setups.. if they are displayed people tend to imitate them and then fail since some of those require you to play differently to stay alive.. i had raid groups that desperately wanted to use spike grenade and tractor cannon and failed to even reach the damage phase because people blew themselves up with the grenade launcher to get rid of a knight or ogre.. while i was asked to change my loadout from outbreak/epshotty/machine gun to wendigo GL and it while i was able to do this, others who did not work with those launchers got wrecked in the normal play.. i did my first vault of glass with a blue scout rifle.. and it was awesome.. =) shooting three lorry sixed targets isnt that much of a skill and i would rather prefer some outstanding roles like the sword bearer or the relic holder and some support roles like the add cleaner or support functions like titan bubble to exist rather than to lower the skill ceiling sice everyone needs to be able to perform those tasks.. and if one task misfires the entire crew needs to wipe.. not the best structure imho.
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Except in instances like Crown of Sorrow, Wrath of the Machine and even Spire of Stars in some instances, you have a margin of error. Manoeuvrability to make up for your mistake.
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actualy the finaly part of spire of stars was so ridiculously crowded that i somehow enjoyed it although i lost track whats to do here and just dragged along before i got a grasp on whats going on.. but even on the entry level of eater of worlds in the jumping puzzle everyone needs to perfrom.. and with those new abilities like well of radiance those encoutners got easier and thus allowing for more mistakes to be made.. =) but intially the raids have a very high treshold which later turns into trivial .. i mean if you can speedrun an entire raid in under 10 minutes then you have an issue with difficulty scaling..=D
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Oh trust me, speedrunners are absolutely mental.
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[quote]Mechanics are great but I don’t agree with the philosophy that every guy in the raid team Needs to perform them [/quote] They don't. [quote]nsane vault puzzle or everyone needs to memorize the callouts for which eye of riven you have to shoot [/quote] They don't. At max, 3 people should understand the basics of the vault for a smooth completion. Rest can afk and kill adds. At max, 2 people should understand riven, you only require 1 person on each side to shoot the eyes (and they really arent hard to undertstand..) and hopefully 2 other people have enough of a brain to tell the other where to stand to cleanse the relic. [quote]The old structure I loved was more RPG than now .. you needed roles like a tank or a damage dealer or a super fast dude for the lamp section[/quote] This is simply a different kind of raid experience. Not every game needs to have the same thing. I do think we could invest more into more supportive or tanky roles, but definitely not too overboard, it just wouldnt work out in an FPS. [quote] instead you now have the need to have swarm of raven with spike grenades and if possible an all warlock well team[/quote] Simply wrong. You're not being truthful. Swarm is simply the "meta". Meta meaning the most popular based on efficiency. Its the quickest, that doesnt mean you cant use tons and tons of other gear because you absolutely can. 6 warlocks is completely uneeded also, 1 well is obviously great, but more than that isnt required. I will admit that since Well is kind of OP that haivng more warlocks is [i]nice[/i], but again not needed. [quote]mkwtd 23144+ full clears, will check raid report [/quote]| You're complaining that people have requirements? Welcome to the real world mate. You don't get hired at your job just because you ask nicely. They get your stats, your experience and take the risk to hire you. People want to do things quickly and effectively and there is nothing wrong with that. If you want to make your own group because you dont like requirements, go ahead. Make friends, get a clan, make your own LFG raid, set your own requirements. [quote]without the two difficulty settings of D1 and especially with those stupid revive tokens and death timer have been way more tedious[/quote] I agree, im sadened a bit by the lack of a hard mode raid, but I guess not enough people played them. As for revive tokens, they are fine, they really dont impede progress at all. [quote] In kings fall or wrath of the machine I killed adds every second .. just to stay alive and not be swarmed yo death.. in CoS I walk to my knight. Melee- shotgun shotgun[/quote] I also enjoyed Kings Fall, but you cannot possibly try to say that it didn't have intense mechanics, because it absolutely did. More than most of d2's raids. As for the COS knight example.. well this isnt really because of the raid encounter, its more to do with how EASY and how Overpowered we've become as guardians. The fact that you can shred the knight so quickly is a consequence of powercreep and people asking for buffs every 5 seconds, and I agree, it does ruin the encounters pacing somewhat. [quote] It’s Routine once you got it . [/quote] Yep, like every raid. Thats sort of the point. Oryx in Kings Fall didn't change from raid to raid. The knights, ogres and adds spawned in the same place, everything was near enough the same. That didn't stop it from being challenging and fun.
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Edited by Hellekeen: 7/23/2019 7:48:01 AMfirst , thanks for taking the time to read the thread and to take further time to quote the sections and answer to them. thats a very polite and appropriate method of answering a thread, so others should take some notes from your approach.. *kudos second: let me try another approach since not every one is familiar with thos eold raids so let me try to do a side by side approach "crown of sorrows" versus "crotas end"..(crotas end because it think it was the most extreme in variation of roles.. (some of it was involuntarily sicne you could solo it) problem with difficulty settings. Entry section: Crown of sorrows: you have three teams of 2 where basically everyone has to kill knights then acolytes then an ogre and in between some annoying thralls while you stand in a wel of radiance.. swapping the buff now and then the only "exceptional role" would be of the one making the callouts for the swap (which is instantly obsolete if you get the rhythm: " Knight, Knight ,Crystal switch, [Ogre]" ) Crotas end. lamplight section: you can either go as a team of 6 trying to reach the lamps all at once and then moving on to the next one or you can have a scout and then several following or one is soloing it (more difficult on hard mode due to two ogers that can knock you off) or you can leave one behind that slowly goes towards the end as a collector , rezzing the fallen teammates. and at the bridge you can either full blown defend the bridge against thralls and knights and ogres at once or you can sit on a rock, sniping the ogre or Gjallarhorning it into oblivion.. so there is a difficulty scale from zero "just mop the dead ones after we passed" to medium -" shoot in the direction where everyone is shooting and then run to where everyone is running, to "specialist" - solo hunter the lamps and the rest follows fast forward to the end (it would be too detailed to go through every encounter) Crown of sorrow endboss. 3 teams of 2 each side.. one getting the buff one goes to his side Knight, Knight, Crystal, switch, Ogre/Deception. Both need to hit the crystal . both need to hit the Deception, shoot three targets the size of a lorry then gather in front of the "real boss" stay in the well and unload into three giant targets.. if you have spike GL and tracktor cannon its one phase, outpreak prime its two phase , the rest is probably three phase. if that sounds awefully familiar, then because it is a similar rhythm as the first encounter. Crotas end: hug the crystal then fight your way through the acolytes and Knights until you are at the two exits of the crystal room. fight wizards and boomers for those who are on boomer duty (later you need to change that aproach since the wizards would simple respawn so you had to stay inside or go to middle window) then the sword "team" (or the sword bearer solo) had to kill the hive sword bearer and take his sword then the team in the back has to damage crota enough and on time to make him kneel so that the sword bearer can damage him with the sword ( in hard mode you would be better off if you had a titan with a bubble to distract the wizards and the boomers so that they do not shoot the sword bearer out of the sky. and to have weapons of light bubble in the back.. survive the crotation. and do this again.. so you have a low skill role as an add cleaner and damage crota to make him kneel you have a medium skill level role like the boomer cleaner or titan bubble distraction guy, and you have a high skill level role as the sword bearer.. so you can get familiar with the raid, the environments, the timing and more just by starting as an add cleaner then boomer duty then sword bearer and if you are good enough as a team you can try the hard mode where you also have to kill the oversouls and the boomer and wizards will respawn but there are also very decent weapons behind the hard mode and then there is the challenge mode.. so there is way more difficulty variation in just one raid.. with enough space in a raid team for support roles After D2 i whole heartly disagree with Bungies decision to have an even playing field with roles and everyone should be doing everythign since that lowers the UPPER skill ceiling and raised the LOWER skill ceiling making it harder for noobs to get into the raid and harder for high level players to have something to show for.. which then leads to a completion of a hard mode being not valued that much anymore.. and suddenly having completed this encoutner is basically worthless.. while if you did the challenge mode you got a rain of rewards and you got adept weapons to show for it.. and now its a futile run after 199 clears which displays the issue at hand perfectly.. TL:DR (most encounters in ) old raids. skill/role variation leaves place for unskilled noobs and high skilled professionals. (most encounters in) new raids even skill ceiling.. no low tier skill roles and no high tier skill roles.. evening out everything somewhere in the middle where you have to be better than the average entry raider and will get bored fast as a seasoned raider leading to the search for confirmation through repetition which is a very futile thing to do.. there is no fame increase in doing Cos 10 times or 100 times.. just time wasted.. (p.s. i am really not expecting the "gitgudders" to git gud and understand this so i would just refrain here from reiterating the issue to them.. and will just add "gigu" to them =) )
