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Edited by MightBeSpidey:
4/26/2019 10:43:31 PM
100
The problem never was the TTK of Luna and Not Forgotten
The real problem is highlighted by Luna and Not Forgotten. The biggest problem with why Luna and NF are so good, is because they belong to the Precision Frame HC Archetype.
For those who are blissfully unaware of what bloom is, I'll give a quick rundown. There is basically a "cone" coming from the barrel of your gun. The bullet you shoot can have a path of travel anywhere in that cone. Consecutive shots fired off in rapid succession (without letting the reticle reset) increase the size of the "cone". There is more to it, but this is the basic concept.
Bloom adds unnecessary RNG to gunfights. The reason why precision frame HCs are so good, is that they have minimal bloom, loads of aim assist on controller, and amazing in air accuracy (IAA is almost perfect on 180s). All other HC archetypes suffer from more bloom, as well as jarring recoil patterns. The effect of these recoil patterns are amplified with the low field of view on console.
Long story short, the real problem is the mechanics of Hand Cannons, not the TTK of Luna's Howl and Not Forgotten. Want to know why Luna and NF aren't as widely used on PC? Bloom doesn't affect mouse and keyboard. That is why you see far more Aces, Last words, Kindled Orchids, etc. on PC. Don't get me wrong, Luna and NF are still good on PC, but you aren't handicapping yourself if you don't use them, due to the lack of bloom on M and K opening up other options. Since Luna and NF are going to remain Precision Frames, they will still dominate the meta.
Lowering the rate of fire of Luna's Howl and Not Forgotten is only fixing a symptom, not treating the disease.
These two weapons will continue to dominate the controller meta (as they will be Precision Hand Cannons still, just with a 150 Rate of Fire and Impact) until the entire hand cannon weapon class gets a re-work.
TL;DR: The mechanics of Hand Cannons on controller is the real problem. Bloom needs to be reworked, as it introduces too much RNG in gunfights, and is the main reason 110s, 140s, and 150s don't "feel as good" on a controller (with a few exceptions such as Spare Rations). Recoil on non-precision hand cannons needs an overhaul as well.
Please upvote so that the whole Hand Cannon weapon class might get the breath of life it needs to open up options besides precision frames!
Edit: Also rip the only primaries that could deal with supers with some effectiveness
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1 ReplyAmazing how stupid people will latch on to stupid theories to bolster stupid opinions. It's the ttk, stupid. Of course it's the ttk.
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I can’t wait for Luna’s/NF to STILL dominate on console because they’ll continue to be the only precision HCs free from bloom/ghost bullets
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I still maintain that Not Forgotten should not have beein added to the game in any form other than as an ornament for Luna's Howl. Why? Its the only gun that needs Legend rank to obtain, which is totally ridiculous for the majority of the playerbase, and ensures the top players have the best hand cannon in the game which is stupid from a balance perspective. Luna's is fine, as its range is ok at best, and can be countered fairly easily. Only the best players would get the ornament, and show their skill without giving them an advantage over anyone who got to Fabled. Other hand cannons should have been fixed before this nerf was even discussed. Bungie seems to be in knee-jerk reaction mode lately with regards to thei buffing/nerfing - Wardcliff being buffed then the buff being partially reverted, Same with Novawarp. Maybe this will be partially reverted (or HC's get fixed) once they realise it wont make that much difference.
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13 RepliesNo I’m pretty sure the ttk is the issue, there is literally no reason to ever use any other primary in the game if you have lunas howl or not forgotten because they have the fastest ttk in the game. Im talking about primarily weapons here, shotguns killing in one shot is not what I mean by fastest ttk. If I tried to use a bow, a pulse rifle, a scout, am auto rifle submachine gun etc. 99% of the time the lunas howl or not forgotten is going to win because nothing can compete. So yeah the ttk is the issue on these guns, wether you guys hate to admit it or not.
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The problem is THEY BROKE THE PHUCKING GAME
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28 RepliesPinnacle weapons were a bad idea from the start of D2.Yes I get the whole let's give the top players something to chase but why weapons ? Why not unique armour with ornaments like the old D1 trials sets. Instead they make two hand cannons that out gun every other primary in the game. If players are that good to actually get to legend in competitive crucible why do they need weapons that give an extra advantage to widen the skill gap even more. Sorry just bad logic In my opinion
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3 RepliesObviously if the hand cannon is going from 180 rpm to 150 and the perk is reduced to make it a 3 tapper in the best case scenario rather than a 2 tapper the ttk is going up, which brings it more in line with other hand cannon ttk. Accuracy is not the problem, though I guess you wish it were. They SHOULD be the most accurate and stable hand cannons in their archetype, because they ARE pinnacle weapons. Pinnacle pvp weapons shouldn't offer such a greatly reduced ttk. If they had outlaw/rampage or outlaw/kill clip with increased range and stability nobody would have bothered. The problem is that you were apparently suckered. I'm not sure how you were suckered, since it's well known that Bungie historically offers weapons they know are OP to get numbers up and then nerf after a while. It's a tactic to get Competitive numbers up. Maybe next time people will think a bit before going through all that work for a temporary weapon. But what am I saying? Next season another OP weapon will be available and all the people with a bad case of E-peen will be right there to get it so they can artificially inflate their pvp numbers and pretend they are more skilled with their stacked teams and pinnacle weapons against solo players with Trust. Bring back sbmm and all these problems go away. Funny how everyone claims sbmm increases lag, yet I still see as much lag as I ever saw in D1 and matchmaking takes longer than D1 except for the top 5% or so who have a hard time getting matches. Screw those guys though. Top 5% means the other 95% aren't affected at all by matchmaking times.
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They also will not fix bloom as well. If they did, 90 % would only use handcannons since it is the best and most powerful primary. Thats why they left LH and NF as precision, still giving an advantage. It was obvious they would get nerfed.
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1 ReplyThe problem is SBMM in Quickplay. Or if you will pvp in the game at all.
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Hand cannons don’t dominate on console. And other weapons besides hand cannons should be able to compete. This is not a hand cannon problem.
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4 RepliesBungie is catering to scrubs that’s why they won’t fix bloom. If they fixed bloom in console then it’ll be gg’s for the casuals. That’s why there’s such a huge skill gap on pc.
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24 RepliesEdited by Lost Sols: 4/26/2019 7:43:29 AMHand cannons are the most dominant primary in the game with or without Luna's and Not Forgotten. You could pull them from the game tomorrow and the meta would become AoS/Trust. I get that Joe Streamer was spamming about bloom all day and now the forums are regurgitating it, but it's bullshit. Hand Cannons are even more dominant on PC than console with AoS hitting well over 60% usage in some playlists. That's not a change that is going to improve the sandbox on console. The only thing these proposed changes would do is make every other primary in the game pointless unless you combined it with massive changes to hand cannon damage dropoff. As is they are already more effective on body damage at range than scouts and barely lag behind on crits. There isn't a thing wrong with hand cannons and there's no RNG nature to using them. Players just want to blame mechanics rather than their own play. Players that understand how hand cannons work have no issues landing shots.
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1 ReplyEdited by Gonchin: 4/28/2019 6:54:21 AMThe number one problem of crucible pvp IS the TTK. Not in the way it is normally portrayed, though. The problem is that it isn't consistent in any way. It depends entirely on the internet connection of the designated "host", many of which are not designed to "host" 12 players. They are ok when they are set to receive, but less suitable at sending information. Take a basic Zavala service revolver for example - Optimal TTK if your pc/console is host:- 1.0 seconds. Optimal TTK if you face the host, who lives near you:- 1.3 seconds. Absolute best TTK if you face the host, who lives on the other side of the world:- 1.7 seconds. Best TTK if host is on the other side of the world, and their mom just decided to watsapp a cat video to her sister:- 2.1 seconds. TTK if host is listening to a pod cast, downloading the latest episode and using skype to call their uncle, while their sister face-times her boyfriend and their father is looking up recipes for dinner:- 2.7 seconds. TTK if host decided to lag you out:- haha, enjoy the view of the planet while in orbit. You can't release guns that kill in less than 1 second, when your game engine can cause players to be at least 1 second out of sync. Even if you have superhuman reflexes, you can't avoid dying if you were already killed 1 second ago on the host console.
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Small maps don’t help
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Its not just bloom. Even with all HCs having no bloom Luna/NF still have a signifcantly faster TTK than any other HC in the game by about .2 secs. Luna/NF are breaking the general .7s global primary TTK where once you start going past that you enter into CoD levels of TTK which Destiny ISN'T CoD. Make every primary weapon hover close to .7s TTK but not go past that. Crucible pinnacle weapons Bungie is now realizing was their biggest mistake for the overall interest in just general Crucible popuation.
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TLDR Removing bloom on Hand Cannons would to 2 things. - Allow spam firing Hand Cannon which detracts from their precision nature. Pace your shots FFS - Render Pulses and short range Scouts irrelevant. Ninkne seems to take that into account. You simply just want a spam firing precision weapon.
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Nerf Luna’s and NF
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This post will change nothing lol it's kinda funny
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1 ReplyI mean, I'd rather see more of a tilt shift for LH and NF. Move them to a different rof. Personally I think they would excel as 150 rpm hand cannons.
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The problem is no nerf is good enough for the bad kids 😒
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2 RepliesEdited by HoundsHell49: 4/27/2019 4:31:36 PMKeep your Luna’s and your Not forgotten. Just give me my doctrine of Passing back. Yes I have Luna, yes I have the recluse. No I don’t use Luna in PvP I enjoy Ace and throne better. I understand why people are upset because of the time it takes to get those two weapons. They really need to buff other weapons up. What I don’t understand and please correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t a 150 rpm a three tap to the head? If that the case what the point of MH since it just add extra damage to the body? All this nerf to Luna and NF is going to do is push people to use Service Revolver and Recluse. Since you can roll a Service Revolver to have a .43 ttk with kill chip.
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You cannot train hard enough to overcome bloom. Therefore, when using any weapon whose accuracy is programmed to be random, you should consider doing something more useful with your time... TLDR: imagine Forza with RNG steering...
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The other thing is it formed a toxic culture of do anything you can to win in the player base. People started cheating DDoSing anything to get an edge and they use it.
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1 ReplyPrimary weapons that reward ridiculous damage buffs without requiring a kill should of never been introduced to the game. This might be too late to save crucible population though. Especially if you're waiting till the next dlc to implement the change. Till then I'd advise anyone who despises the meta to avoid pvp and let numbers dwindle faster, it's the only way to make them do something about crucible.
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that .66 ttk was a huge problem because, if you're good (and if you got to 2100 you're probably good) you're giving the best ttk gun in the game to the better players.
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23 RepliesEdited by Izzi: 4/26/2019 4:41:51 AM180 RPM handcannons should've never been introduced into the game in the first place.
