Whether it's pve or PvP it doesn't matter where I use these weapons as they almost always let me down. It's not ttk, or any of that crap and it really never was that. It's the accuracy that is holding them back. Bungie for whatever reason gives smgs and auto rifles such a "high" headshot multiplier...but they aren't accurate weapons. Even after the change to even out smg body shot damage a bit it's still ridiculous just how difficult it is to consistently land any headshots without requiring you to be in shotgun range to do so, but yet it still requires a far greater majority of headshots to be usable. I don't have much experience with smgs, according to my shaxx emblem, but I don't think it's unreasonable to say that they are being crippled by their firing pattern and general recoil. It doesn't matter how fast they kill if they can only work within such a limited range to get out a slightly faster ttk than something like luna's, or maybe not one at all. I have not seen even a slight use of smgs since the weapon system change in year 2, and even then people were only really using the precision frame smgs because they suffer less from the garbage recoil they have. Auto rifles struggle with this same exact issue. No matter how fast they CAN kill, they aren't consistent enough to allow them to reach this ttk. So many auto rifles suck simply because they don't shoot straight and it's moronic that they are being treated like precision weapons when they can't even fire straight. I understand bungie creates these firing patterns and recoil to prevent shooting out of specific ranges...but what range are the majority of auto rifles supposed to be shooting at when they can't even accurately hit at close range? Bungie can keep buffing their PvP damage and reducing their ttk, but it doesn't fix what's WRONG with them. They can't expect a 85% headshot to bodyshot ratio to achieve optimal ttk when they can't even hit above 70% when fighting someone who's shooting back. I have a HUGE amount of auto rifle experience and it's become painfully clear with every passing update that they will never be good unless they become accurate. Ttk and changing the bodyshot ratio won't fix this either because then the weapon still has to be stuck within a limited situational range. 450s were only good because they had the range and ttk to outclass everything else, but as they tweaked their range and buffed pulse rifles, which did the same thing but better, it only went down hill. The accurate 450s were left with good range and solid accuracy, but are now stuck with a rather "slow" ttk compared to pulse rifles that perform at a much higher range and do it more easily. 450s are the only autos that truly don't suck but that's not really saying much. This same exact issue is what's plaguing handcannons RIGHT NOW. They are precision weapons but have a built in mechanism that cripples their long range capabilities even though they already have rather high damage fall off. This turns people off from these weapons and even makes them function poorly in pve. Before someone screams "but ace of spades," ace of spades isn't the majority of handcannons. 150s are garbage, 110s are rather accurate but are limited by an extremely slow fire rate, and even some 140s can struggle at times. Creating a mechanic that cripples accuracy is stupid when there are weapons that already exist that don't suffer from this mechanic, or at least not as much, as the other weapon types. On pc, there are so many more viable weapons because they aren't being crippled by stupid recoil or bloom, and if they do have recoil it's at least controllable. Pve is where it matters less, but since the annual pass has been so focused on clearing content quickly due to timers and general end game, auto rifles and smgs just don't feel useful in them. Above I said that no matter how much they buff their damage it won't fix them, but that falls more into pvps mechanisms. In pve smgs just don't have much power and like I said above, are crippled by their firing patterns and lack of control. Auto rifles suffer from accuracy issues less in pve, but they really don't put out enough valuable fire power to make them worth the time it takes just to get used to them. In pve, smgs should get a 25% damage boost for all of them and a 15% damage buff for all autos. They need to shred otherwise the sustained fire it takes to kill most enemies or shooting at tankier targets just feels too slow, and with the way they handle where they don't controllably shoot straight...its just a waste of time and honestly a waste of effort for them to produce these weapons that nobody really uses. I've always liked full auto weapons and I despise it when games cripple their accuracy for "balance" but make other weapons better and more consistently safe to use. Destiny is too hell bent on precision hits for damage, creating inaccurate weapons is counter intuitive.