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3/5/2019 12:18:54 AM
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The Magic Bullet

So there’s been a bit of an upset with another few new Narrative Previews that came out recently. Regarding the shot that killed Cayde’s Ghost. I’m sure most people have written this off as another nonsensical retcon, but I think there might be something more too it. For those who didn’t read the new narrative previews yet, essentially the Praxic Warlock Aunor Mahal has taken an interest in the Hero of the Red War under suspicions of organizing the murder of Cayde-6 in collaboration with the Scorn Army. This might seem a bit out of nowhere for some, perhaps even insulting considering how close they were with Cayde, but given that the Guardian had fallen in with the Drifter (who was currently under investigation as well) very soon after Cayde’s Death, was involved with the efforts to get the Prison of Elders back under control and had also conducted a Hive Ritual that led them to a Hive Gunsmith who specialized in Weapons of Sorrow (the shot that killed Sundance was said to be a ballistics of a Weapon of Sorrow or a comparable Hive implement) from an outsider’s perspective, this could seem rather suspicious. Its possible that from her perspective, it seemed like the Hero of the Red War was covering their tracks, cleaning up any evidence still in the Prison, eliminating the craftsmen who made the bullet perhaps. Before Aunor’s imagination could go wild, Ikora stepped in, assuring her that the Guardian had nothing to do with Cayde’s death and was simply the one he took with him to assist on quelling the Prison riot. Being one of her Hidden, Aunor takes Ikora on her word, but now believes that the Guardian can assist her in her case against the Drifter. Now, what’s been irking people the most isn’t the accusation made by Aunor, rather something Drifter says. While masquerading as a Warlock named Finch, Drifter comments that Scorn Guns can’t kill a Ghost. Obviously, that a bold face falsehood. Exact armaments are unknown, but the Rifleman Pirrha appeared to use some altered variant of the typical Fallen Wire Rifle. I doubt the Scorn would design their weapons to be specifically weaker than the weapons of their Fallen counterparts. So if Scorn guns can’t kill Ghosts, then by proxy, Fallen guns can’t kill Ghosts either, which is obviously not true. There are thousands of dead Ghosts around the tangled shore, undoubtably a large percentage of which would have been killed by Scorn or Fallen. Not to mention the fact that Cayde had warned to watch your Ghost around Pirrha, suggesting that he’s got a body count for Little Lights. So why now try to shoehorn in this idea that Scorn don’t have any guns that can kill a Ghost? What’s so different about Sundance’s death that needs the explanation of a bullet from a Weapon of Sorrow? Well, I believe that Sundance is the first dead Ghost we’ve actually seen. Now I know what you’re saying. That we’ve seen plenty of dead Ghosts since the the beginning of Destiny! There were collectables around the Tower, there was once a collection mission where you kill Fallen and take the dead Ghosts they had on them, the Ghost Fragments on the Tangled Shore, they’re everywhere! But have we ever seen what happened to Sundance? Where a Ghost’s eye, the orb at it’s center, is compromised and it emits that wave of Light? No. The closest thing to what happened to Sundance was that Traveler’s Wave of Light when it broke out of Ghaul’s Cage. Trading a Ghost Fragment to the Spider? They’ve still got their eye. Picking up a dead Ghost collectable? Still have their eye. Back in the first Destiny, they would even wake up and blink away, making them sleeping Ghosts that just needing to be woken up. What we’ve thought were dead Ghosts are just Ghosts that’ve been neutralized by traumatic force. Think back to Sagira. She was struck almost directly in the center of her eye, but the eye itself was never compromised. She was neutralized, and would probably be considered dead if she wasn’t taken to the Cult member’s hideout in the EDZ and placed in the resurrection slab. So this is what I think they mean when they say normal Scorn Guns can’t kill a Ghost. Any race can neutralize a Ghost, making it inoperable, but only a Weapon of Sorrow can compromise a Ghost’s eye, actually killing it. An explanation for this little bit of confusion is fine and dandy and all, but that still leaves the question of where the bullet came from? Who’s the culprit behind this? The Mindbender was brought up by the Drifter, which could make sense. Aunor claimed that it couldn’t be him because he hadn’t established his Throne at the time of Cayde’s death, but creating Light eating bullets isn’t necessarily related to having a Throne. Perhaps the Drifter himself. Lets be honest, he wouldn’t be poking so deeply into Aunor’s investigation if he didn’t have anything to hide. He’s killed his fair share of Lightbearers, so why would Cayde be any different? If Cayde posed a threat to Drifter’s plans, it would only make sense for him to have disposed of the Exo. The Guardian going after the Scorn Barons would have just tied up loose ends for him. He certainly likes getting others to do his work for him, so it’d fit with his motif. He’s very learned in Hive rituals, he instructed the Guardian on conducting one after all, so the production of a Weapon of Sorrow-like bullet wouldn’t be too far fetched. If we’re to believe Aunor in the fact that the Mindbender wouldn’t have been able to create the shot until after he build his Throne, it’d be awfully suspicious he tried to pin the production of the bullet on the Mindbender. Not to mention one rather telling voice line from the Prison of Elders Strike. The Trickster made Drifter laugh. Perhaps he knew her personally? The Witch Queen. The Least likely culprit, in my opinion. Getting her hands on a ballistic from a Weapon of Sorrow would take all of a single snap of her fingers. Getting it in the hands of the Scorn would be like child’s play to her. But… why? I could see her doing so to turn the Tower against the Hero of the Red War (who is a major threat to her, having killed multiple Hive gods) if more and more evidence stacked against them came out, but all suspicions were dropped with a single assurance that they didn’t do it. Still, its a possibility that should be considered. You never know what sort of plans she’s got up her sleeves. How about you? Got any suspects you think could’ve gotten that bullet into the Scorn’s hands?
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#lore #destiny2

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  • No there have definitely been Ghosts that have been killed in the past. Some examples: The Ghosts that Felwinter kills when fighting a Warlord. You could argue that the Ghost died because “Guardian vs Guardian” argument, but it’s specifically stated that Felwinter used a shotgun to blast the thing to bits. Even if the gun were in the hands of a normal persons the result would’ve been the same The Ghosts that were killed by SIVA. It was said that SIVA tendrils formed and grabbed the Iron Lords’ Ghosts and killed them. If a mindless technological plague could kill a highly advanced drone, then I’m sure anything could. Every Guardian who died at Twilight Gap would’ve had their Ghosts killed by normal Fallen using normal Fallen weapons. Like seriously, there were a lot of dead Guardians at Twilight Gap. Point being: this is all just another case of Bungie not paying attention to their own dang Lore. It’s been well established for years that anything could kill a Ghost. From nanobots all the way to generic Fallen wire rifles. It’s not just the Weapons of Sorrow that can kill Ghosts, it’s any weapon. It sounds more like whoever wrote this lore bit just didn’t bother to double check themselves because while anything can kill a Ghost and render a Guardian Lightless, only a Weapon of Sorrow is able to bypass the Ghost and go straight to the Guardian and their Light.

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    • Is it just possible that drifter was just trying to mess with investigation

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      • So my theory on this is a bit convoluted, but it starts with things like the Crucible, and how ghosts act when their guardians die. Even in incredibly dangerous situations (boss fights in darkness zones, raid fights, the middle of crucible gunfights, etc) ghosts will just pop out, float in mid-air, marking their partners position, before reviving them. Now on one hand that might just be game mechanics, but realistically they do have to revive guardians from [i]somewhere[/i] so its probably not unreasable to assume its similar if with different timing. So if a ghost can be killed by normal gunfire, why the HELL does Shaxx let them do that in the crucible? Why do they float in the middle of live fire zones where a stray bullet could end them if they could die permanently that way? Doesn't make sense to me. My explanation: weapons require a certain special power to harm ghosts permanently. Ghosts can be blasted out of existence (see Felwinter), but not truly destroyed. In that case they basically just get rendered back as light and reforged by the traveler. (Side note: I assume the traveler is passively spinning out new ghosts periodically. Otherwise ghosts would be a MUCH more important resource and we wouldn't be letting them float around on their own in hostile territory to find new guardians) So normal weapons hurt them, but not really destroy them, so they tend to be a bit reckless. So how DO ghosts get killed? Via the darkness. We KNOW the Hive can do it, it was a major lore point for them in D1, especially around the Crota lore, and the Weapons of Sorrow stuff confirms it. So what about other factions? Well the Taken are a Hive/Darkness deriviative, so it makes sense they have the same method. The Vex? We know they broke into Oryx's throne realm, studied it for a while, and started worshiping a worm (vault of glass), so they presumably got a similar power from there. It even makes sense, since the only people that particular power can harm is guardians, so there is no threat to the Hive from handing it out, so the Worm Gods probably give it out pretty freely. That said, propagating an upgrade like that is expensive, so the Vex probably can't put those systems everywhere. Not to mention it might mess with something else they are doing, since they aren't exactly the darkness' friends either. The Cabal? Known to steal and re-purpose tech from literally everyone. They probably stole some vex or Hive tech with the ability and worked it into their more advanced equipment, which is why their tougher soldiers and most secure bases are darkness zones and can harm ghosts, but not all of them. The Fallen? Similar to the Cabal, with the added benefit of having been fighting the darkness and other races for centuries if not millennia longer than us, so there's a good chance they picked something up [i]somewhere[/i] along the way. So in summary, all the races have some kind of tech that lets them hurt ghosts, but its relatively rare. The ghosts we find in D1, were probably killed by one of these methods, which keeps their light from returning to the traveler. When we release them, they return to the traveler to be reforged. This left the issue of Sundance's death, but that is explained by the recent lore update. Frankly I'm happy with it because Sundance dying to a single bullet made less sense than anything else to me. Especially since such a deal was made of the hive being able to harm the light back in early D1.

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        • Here are a couple of readings I found.. From Ace of Spades quest. Cayde: This one's for the fellow calls himself The Drifter. You did warn me running with you would put a target on my back. Guess I'm in good company though, huh? After all, never had any fun without a little risk. That's the whole idea with the operation you're putting together, ain't it? MY idea by the way. Had it, like, a million years ago, back when you were still handsome. So, uh, you're welcome. You know, getting that up and running means coming out of hiding - giving you-know-who another shot at you. Hope I was around to see THAT showdown. Personally, my money was on the guy with the Golden Gun. But hey, what do I know? I'm dead. From Bright Side of a Bad Idea Lore entry. "Now, I make no promises that what he's done was ever intended for the greater good. Point of fact, I actively doubt it. But here we are. "He's kit-bashed Vex tech with Fallen components, married it to Hive magic, and scavenged Golden Age science with a sprinkling of who knows what, and he's… "Hold up. I know this sounds bad. Sounds like just the kind of trouble we squash, but… "He's secured a pocket of the Ascendant plane. Not a throne world, nothing that grand, but a big enough chunk to matter—and he's gone and caged an army. A Taken army. Leftovers from Oryx's reign? Something new? Something old? Something… Hers? Can't say. Don't know. But he has 'em there. He says it's to hold 'em, study 'em—but the best bet says his intentions aren't so clean. "Purity of intent aside, this is what he wanted to show me. This is why he's here—his Gambit. He wants to help humanity—help us poor fools who call ourselves Guardians—learn how to control not only the Taken… but the powers that bind them. "Sounds like a bad idea, I agree. "Bigger picture? Sometimes bad ideas are the best option. Hell… "Sometimes they're the only." —A Renegade's Observations of a Drifter A lot of connections to what happened. As you know the Renegade is Shin. Who happens to be the guy with the golden gun.

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        • Edited by TotalDramaGamer: 3/5/2019 5:49:56 PM
          It's very simple... If normal weapons can't kill ghosts... then why do they hide, literally, all the time? That doesn't make sense. If Ghosts are these unkillable machines... then why hide? Even our Ghost goes on to say that Cayde's Ghost was pretty careless, to the implied point that is a very dangerous thing to do. -- Also, what's the point in having an 'indestructible Ghost' when, very clearly, Ghosts are [u]extremely[/u] vulnerable to becoming 'inoperable' due to weapon's fire? [spoiler]I can't overstate this enough. A SINGLE slap rifle shot incapacitated Sagria(?)… bruh, that's not good. At all. It's quite clear that Ghost cannot afford to be shot, or damaged much, if at all. They're only as good as long as they can operate. Even if Cayde's Ghost didn't go all explody… Cayde would have [i]still[/i] died due to his ghost being inoperable (but 'not dead') which isn't a plus at all.[/spoiler] An inoperable Ghost is useless to the guardian and will be their demise. At best, it can be recovered later for its memories (yet, almost never are they revived, we see this time and time again), but this still is at sacrifice to a HUGE risk to the guardians. At worst, the enemy now has that intel and siphon remaining light from the Ghost. This method of 'retrieval' can backfire just as much as it is useful. So not only is it a huge risk... it's a huge risk with plenty of ways to backfire. So... there's no real reason to have a ghost be 'almost indestructible' yet not resilient in any way whatsoever. Why have one and not the other? It serves no front line purpose (the main point of a guardian) and, in a certain way, only ever helps the enemy (since, again, we really can't revive these ghosts outside of very rare exceptions). -- Another point. Perhaps the most important one. You talk about how we 'trade' Ghost shells to the Spider for stuff and they still have their orb and all that. Okay, okay... [b][i]WHY ON EARTH WOULD WE DO THAT??????[/i][/b] If they're 'not dead', technically, then that course of trading should be absolute blasphemy and abhorrent! If there is ANY chance to still utilize, revive, or make use of these Ghosts... why the hell would be giving them away? We should be hoarding them ourselves! It doesn't make any sense. Especially if it is established that 'dead ghosts aren't actually dead'...

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          • Edited by FdYAcsoyPKN83gLE: 3/6/2019 12:43:18 AM
            When I read the first part, I was: "Okay, this sounds like a good story of original characters." When I continued reading, I went: "What did I just read?" Honestly, the 'magic bullet' part sounded like some crazy 'conspiracy theory.'

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          • The guy with triangle hair killed Kennedy

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          • The fact that it would require a more powerful round makes sense. I just thought the rifleman had an extra strong sniper, but the hive bullets actually make sense with the lore. (This also makes sense with the game mechanics where ghosts are solid objects but aren’t destroyed when you shoot them with a sniper.) Idk, just my 2 cents.

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          • I’m sorry. Who are you referring to when you say “Witch Queen”? Are you talking about the Queen of the Reef Awoken Mara Sov? Savathün, Queen of being a 🅱️itch?

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            • “Scorn guns can’t kill a Ghost,” the man said, taking a step away from the wall, and uncrossing his arms. “Sword Logic doesn’t work that way. The throne came after,” Aunor replied. “It was built on Cayde-6’s death." "It’s as your hero surmised. Sundance was murdered by the Barons of the Tangled Shore. They pooled all their resources to craft a single Thorn-like bullet." Pirrha, the Rifleman is a Scorn Baron specialising in long-range combat. Responsible for the deaths of Awoken Paladins Tellos Cir, Loris Pol, and Hollis Esoat Pallas Falls, Pirrha is also known to have destroyed multiple Ghosts. As a starving, runty little Dreg, the Mindbender fell into the Moon’s Hellmouth. He’s never spoken an intelligible word since. But his time in the Hive’s domain changed him, gave him a life-long obsession. After years of study, he found a way to carve a throne-world of his own from the Ascendant Realm. (Pre-launch lore.. doesn't indicate the throne world was built on Cayde's death)

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              • Just throwing this out there: Why was the Rifleman the only one who bothered to move and start taking aim at cayde? While everyone was watching, he was the only one who made a move to try and catch him off guard. Was this pre planned? Did the Rifleman decide to just step in because he saw Cayde was holding his own and needed to end this? Also remember that in the cutscene, his original plan seemed to be just sniping out Cayde on the spot. He even already had his rifle charging up. That was until Cayde pulled out his ghost. Then he immediately switched targets. And that's when Sundance got blown up. Are we sure the bullet was meant for the ghost? But the Rifleman has a ghost killing history too right? So maybe that was the plan after all. He saw Cayde was taking a beating and thought ahead. He probably knew Cayde would pull the girl out and got in position to do so. What if this bullet was meant to kill Cayde? Then Sundance couldve fled off and came back to revive Cayde later. So Cayde would still be here.

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                • Edited by Necrogen: 3/5/2019 5:17:34 PM
                  Love the read. So you're saying that these ghosts are neutralized? I suspected so and that spider is going to find a way to make his own fallen guardians somehow. That and perhaps sell off ghosts back to the tower for business purposes. Yeah when I read that [i]we[/i] made the hit possible I thought to myself [i]unless an alternate version of ourself goes back in time to give the scorn bullets of sorrow it's just not possible.[/i] Right now the only evidence of time travel that we have are the EXO stranger and saint 14. Brief recap EXO stranger is now meeting with Mara Sov as the game has linked both parties so far. The second example is that saint 14 has a shotgun that we created and gave to him for him to give to us for him to receive again. Technically right now in our timeline he is alive looking for Osiris and he is going to be fighting the vex for quite some time so he is not dead. I personally hope that they don't try some time travel nonsense to explain Cayde's death and just make it more coherent and sensical that drifter was involved or someone from the shadows of your gave the scorn armaments that were able to take out guardians. Or maybe that they did in fact learn how to make weapons of sorrow / stole bullets.

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                  • [i]pulls up the last word[/i] Drifter..... Dredgen Vale? I dont care. your last word was said long, long time ago.

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                  • Eris Mourn.

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                  • Is was Eris Morn

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                    • The Drifter. You start the "The Rifleman" mission at his sniper nest. Next to the gun are Tex Mechanica ammo cases. In a piece of lore, the one where The Drifter is trying to lure Redrix into playing Gambit? He is stocking up on Tex Mechanica weapons. Hell, he even gave us THE LAST WORD, a TEX MECHANICA gun. It was him. He eliminated Cayde through The Rifleman, in order to put down the biggest threat to his operations and to frame us for that murder, which almost worked.

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                      • In my opinion, the cut scene happened exactly as it was shown to us. This lore has arisen due to the fact there are zero surviving witnesses to the crime (technically there is one, but his memory is gone!)... so some questions are being asked (potentially due to a connection between us and the drifter) and I think the drifter used this opportunity to sow the seeds of doubt. Think about what the drifter achieved with the malfeasance quest, then think about what he was trying to achieve in the draw quest, and what actually happened. If he thinks he can't get us on his side naturally, then he may have provoked the issue to leave us with no choice.

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                        • I wonder.. The bullet is what caused everything. Without Cayde's death we wouldn't have chased after Uldren. We wouldn't have entered the Dreaming City to kill Riven. We wouldn't have made that wish that cursed the Dreaming City.

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                          • Edited by Freak: 3/5/2019 2:26:44 AM
                            The Magic bullet theory? It’s been solved. Kennedy was accidentally shot by one of his own Secret Service agents. They matched the bullet whole to a 223 round if I remember it right. It did not fit with the 6.5 carcano round as previously believed. Then his brother was assassinated so he would divulge the truth. This is “speculation” of course! [b]R[/b] [b]i[/b] [b]P[/b] If I disappear suddenly you all know why.... Orange man Bad!😈

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                          • Can’t Fallen arc weapons kill ghosts? I think in the Chaperone Lore a guardian’s ghost was chopped up by a vandal. Maybe Bungie is being inconsistent? It’s happened before. Anyway, just my two cents.

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                            • Edited by Corrick II: 3/5/2019 5:52:09 AM
                              I’m writing it off as an eye-roll-worthy attempt at making Bungie’s narrative team look edgy by suggesting we were the culprit behind Cayde’s death and then doing a quick about-face and passing it off as the Praxic order “just doing their jobs”. Even getting [i]close[/i] to blaming my character for that, who has done nothing but serve humanity to the point of agonizing frustration, is just a bullshit move. Come up with something original, narrative team. Quit with this “the hero did it?” nonsense.

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                              • Defo that Mara called it months ago she would turn on us. Snotty cow

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                              • Ives.

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                                • The transcripts for Warden of Nothing is not available on Ishtar but dialogue from the Drifter concerning the Trickster leads me to believe that he has a past association with the Barons, which could explain the bullets.

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                                • Ain't that a blender?

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                                • Eris Morn.

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