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Destiny 2

Discuss all things Destiny 2.
Edited by Lost Sols: 2/20/2019 9:16:11 PM
320

D2 PvP dropped below 500k players yesterday. Is it time to discuss player population and the state of the game yet?

14 million people/accounts have played D2 since launch. Yesterday's population: PvP- 490.5k PvE- 570.9k [quote]Edit: shout-out to TattooedOni who pointed out that DTR numbers include Gambit. I did not know that. Yesterday's Crucible was actually 345,415 and hit a low water mark of 268,000 on February 9. Those are as bad as the game has ever seen.[/quote] It will be interesting to see what they bump back up to with the release of the Season of the Drifter, but these numbers are reaching the same lows the game saw in D1 year 3 and D2 year 1. One could obviously make the argument that it's just players siphoning off as the game gets further into each content release, but here's the issue with that; we have been told repeatedly by the anti-sbmm crowd that SBMM was there reason population numbers dropped in D1 and D2 Y1. We also saw the game bombarded by all the "dead game", "D2 sucks", etc comments all throughout year 1 from both community in general as well as from the major influencers. Yet here we are, after an expansion in Forsaken that was extremely well received at launch and generally hailed as one of the best Destiny content releases and one that "brought back the hobby", and yet we're approaching half-way through the annual pass and not only are people not logging on in droves, there's not even a hint of excitement for season 6. This isn't indicative of a game that's returned to "hobby" status and it's incredibly worrying for the remainder of the year. So my question is, what went wrong and why are so many leaving the game? Obviously there's a lot going on right now with Apex having it's huge surprise launch, as well as Anthem and Division 2 out/about to release, and we are in the final week of the season. Those things taken at a glance and in a vacuum would definitely explain away a lot, but it doesn't come close to telling the entire story. For as much as Forsaken added to the game in terms of investment and things to do/chase/grind for, the numbers have been in a decline since before this season began and have continued to fall throughout. This is something that all these changes to progression and the amount we have to grind for everything was supposed to curb. "SBMM makes people stop playing", so Bungie removed it and people have stopped playing faster than than they ever did in D1 and considering the current lack of a massive anti-Destiny campaign like the big name influencers waged in year one to help drive people away, it's staggering how quickly players have left what should have been a light-years better Crucible experience over year one with the complete sandbox overhaul and return to 6v6. I was fortunate enough to attend the Summit and I know the narrative players had going in, the quality of interaction we experienced and now I've seen where we are and there's a massive disconnect for me. I know most of the people in the rooms wanted a far more grindy game, but I never thought that every positive change vanilla D2 gave the game and franchise would be shuttered and we'd see another massive overcorrect; and yet that's what has happened in my opinion. Forsaken and subsequently Black Armory went too far. I'll start with matchmaking because I've already mentioned it as well as written volumes on the topic over the course of the season. I think we can finally dispel the notion that skill in matchmaking is what's driven population declines, again particularly seeing how well received the sandbox is now vs year one. I've said this many times already, but we never got to experience year 2 PvP and all the positive changes with any semblance of fair matchmaking in QP or Comp. Comp has its own fair share of issues there, but QP was easy. Just don't remove skill factoring. Yet that's exactly what happened and in a season where I have ranked up valor 9 times, only 1 of those ranks has been in QP because it's so freaking brutal. It's also made my friends stop playing it outside of needed bounties or quests. No one I know wants to log in just play QP because it's fun, like we did throughout D1 and even in D2 Y1. It also says something that as broken as IB is with rules and scoring, that it's still so incredibly fun with the new Sandbox paired with decent matchmaking and more fair player vs player engagements, that I've ranked up almost 9 Valor ranks playing it. Then there's the sandbox that is admittedly a lot better than year one and at one point in Forsaken, I thought maybe the best ever. I've dialed back from that a bit as year 2 has progressed and we start to see a rippling of little issues that grew throughout D1 with balancing. I never thought year 2 needed kill times dialed to 11 and I think that's starting to be an issue with no ceiling for great weapons without breaking play. Special weapons were really well balanced in year one and just simply adjusting the ammo economy and reworking the slotting would have been a huge start there. They didn't need to have best-in-slot weapons in every slot though or the massive performance boosts to shotguns. Primaries were in a very good place as well by the end with exotics showing how kill times could be quickened without removing the ceiling across the board. Grenades and ability cool downs needed the biggest buff going into year 2 and those were nailed perfectly. I still contend that had year one had the grenades and CDs we have now, it wouldn't have tanked nearly as badly. Heavy was too prevalent in year 1, but it had to be to break up team shooting since that was the only way to use special weapons and again, grenades and abilities were so poor that there were no real neutral games. Then we got fun new supers in year 2, but inexplicably they were given insane damage resistance, durations and/or damage, as well as mods to get them faster. Players with supers in the first minute isn't uncommon. They were too slow charging at launch, but buffing them up to D1 rates would've been great. Instead we went well beyond. Then finally there's PvE that I used to play all 3 characters every week for years. Now I have played less an hour of PvE in the last month. I haven't played my Titan or Warlock since last November and I'm not looking forward to SotD pushing power to 700 and having to regrind another 50 levels and not because the leveling up itself is a bad thing, but from having to deal with the ridiculous infusion economy to just be able to wear and use what I like and already have again. Beyond that, the further up the cap goes, the less and less desire I have to ever even think about leveling one of my other characters again. As long as the current infusion economy exists and forces me to play wearing and using gear I don't like, I won't be touching another character; and for all the awesome content Forsaken did bring to D2 PvE, the experience of playing it was really soured by not getting to use what I had and loved and absolutely hating my characters because they looked like such garbage. I'll never understand the hard stance taken on this or what meaningful infusion adds to the game. It's the single worst change to PvE ever made. Then there's the oversaturation of RNG. Grind is fine. Things like Titles were great. RNG dialed to 11 in everything? Not so much. And finally, I think random rolls were done wrong. I don't think they're bad with the variety of weapons they've added, but making them random rolls of each was a mistake. Destiny is a looter-shooter and so lots of loot is good. Destiny does in a sense have a lot more loot now, but it's completely undermined by how it was implemented. My 10th version of Better Devil's is still just another Better Devil's dropping. Cashing in a pile of Crucible tokens and getting 6-7 Anonymous Autumn's isn't any more interesting. What could have been a lot more interesting is if instead of making the different rolls random versions of the same weapon, is had they been their own named weapons. Even if they had the exact same skins, seeing all the different weapon names all with their own unique set rolls would have been way more interesting. It also could have solved the collections problem for not being able to pull random rolled weapons out. If each was it's own unique named weapon, that isn't a problem anymore. It also gives more clear rewards to chase with a specific named weapon vs a random variation of one, and yeah not all would be as good and there world be standouts, but it would also make kill feeds a hell of a lot more diverse which would go a long way to curbing nerf requests, and if a particular weapon was way too prevalent or good, it would be a hell of a lot easier to tune that one gun vs tuning Better Devil's and having that affect all variations, which seemed to me the entire point of static rolls to begin with. I hope that the things and other community concerns are at least topics of conversation within the studio. I really feel a huge disconnect from this game that I still do love and think could very easily be course-corrected to a game that truly is a hobby game that has something for all levels of investment, but that starts with understanding that the balance needs to fall in-between what D2 was at launch and is currently and ending the cycle of pushing too far when all that's needed is a light touch or digging in and refusing to acknowledge issues as players leave in waves. We're all here because we love the game and franchise and want it to succeed. I hope the future is bright.
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#destiny2 #DTC

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  • Edited by Error_107-RD: 3/4/2019 3:22:09 AM
    Sometimes I just laugh when top players cry about casual and average players low desire to be stomp for an entire night. At the moment, there is still no such thing as SBMM in competitive, you just match people that are on your same rank, rank says nothing about your skills, you could literally go straight to legend if you are just so lucky to always be with 3 beast on your team. Bungie has the system to see how good a player is doing on a daily basis like elo, then why not use it, for the last couple of days you've been playing like a total pro beating everyone(Because you are a streamer) then here, play with some high ability players as well. How is it even possible that while I'm a top 150K in survival I get matched with a top 5k or lowest just because he low on rank because he have not played that much on this season. I'm in favor of people wanting everyone to grow and always be better but what you need to understand is that not everyone learn the same way nor as quickly, no one can actually expect that a regular player with about 2-3 hours a day to play will be able to beat a team of kids that the only thing that do the entire day is play, that's practically their job! getting to the lighthouse is a walk in the park compare to legend and that was not such an easy task to begin with and was still the most fun and great pvp experience in d1

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  • Yesterday D2 reached a new record: 191,896 PVP players...OMG

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  • 252,501 players tracked yesterday Is this a new low for the franchise? This is between PC, PS4 and Xbox..........damn

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    • Since BUNGIE decided to give streamers (who should get real jobs) and tryhard no-life gamers all the good weapons in PvP (Luna's Howl, Not Forgotten, etc.), I've decided to spend my money supporting other games and game devs / publishers who don't penalize me for having a real life in the real world.

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      • Duud... don't worry... it's all a Vex Simulation... The numbers aren't real "There is no spoon.."

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        • Holy -blam!- text wall, didn’t even try.

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          • Im currently taking a break because of other games but I'm becoming more discouraged about destiny the older it gets. I used to love raiding in Destiny 1 but Bungie really does know how to piss on your hard work. They pick and choose when they want to make content irrelevant only to have that very same content drip fed back to you. They've done it so many times I now think playing pve is a massive waste of time, for me personally. I enjoy crucible though lol but I'm burnt out on d2 at the moment. Apex is filling in nicely.

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          • So much was changed in D2. When you add ideas or changes to a game, you have to hit on a bunch of them. They didn't hit on many in D2 which caused a lot of the problems. This is true for both PvP and PvE. These problems caused problems in the community. People quit playing. People started to have to be more solo due to people leaving. What still amazes me is how Bungie said they wanted more people to raid and they made raids so that the community has become more selective.

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          • I know people will disagree and say get gud etc but in D1 I loved going back into raids and smashing the enemy because I was so op. It had the added bonus of enabling a below average player to go back and help out guys who were starting out or struggling. Now there’s no point, raids for many are a total drag once they’ve been done ( many in my clan haven’t even bothered). I believe there would be a much bigger player involvement if power wasn’t matched for everything . As for pvp, I’ve always wanted to see what going in and being given the weapons for that single encounter would be like... all guardians get the same.

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            • Edited by Fixxxer: 2/22/2019 9:00:02 AM
              That's what happens when you cater a game to YouTubers, no-lifers, elitists, and neckbeards that solo everything. Your large player base of normal players gives you the finger.

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              • Yesterday's PVP population was 305.000 and numbers keep dropping on a daily basis....this is gonna be fun

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                • [quote]14 million people/accounts have played D2 since launch. Yesterday's population: PvP- 490.5k PvE- 570.9k[/quote] That's still a lot of players in the field. I'm sure that Bungie expects player population to fluctuate as I'm sure they also expect that the majority of their player-base will eventually branch out and play other games. Especially with new releases in the genre and/or other titles. I'm in that category as well as many in my circle of friends and clan mates. Also, people do get busy with life and responsibilities and depending on the time of year, it could cause shifts/trends with in-game population. Do these numbers alone indicate an issue with the game? For me, I don't believe so.

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                  • Time to start combining servers and using the count that can be on 1 server st a time. It’s a sure sign to the end of a game when this happens. Not just this game, but many (if not most) over history.

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                  • It’s always a one way system as teams go you either get put on a decent team or a complete dog shit team.

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                  • Destiny the game where we always hope for a brighter future.

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                  • Can't say I'm surprised at all. Since D1 they've made changes that went in the wrong direction since D1. 1. Factions have become useless. In D1 each faction had their own set of armor, weapons, and exclusive ships. Now they were just around temporarily for those boring repetitive faction events. 2. Trials of Osiris 3v3 changed to Trials of the Nine 4v4. Trials of Osiris was great and fun not to mention you had things like the boons, why they felt the need to change it is beyond me. 3. RNG is trash people constantly getting the same exotics over and over. 4. No Strike exclusive weapons and armor. This use to be what made strike fun and kept people running them, but yet again they were removed. 5. Stupid extra mechanics in raids. Because of stuff like this solo players that lfg to get booted because they didn't get the hang of things quick enough. 6. Xur is useless 7. Cheaters in competitive 8. Iron Banner is boring and garbage. The same weapons over and over reskinned alongside the armor. 9. A great event like Escalation protocol has gone to waste. Why wasn't a EP Pulse rife, Machine gun, Scout Rifle, or Rocket launcher added to the loot pool? 10. The blind well was trash and a failure. 11. Certain titles like cursebreaker locked behind trash rng. 12. Character customization is still horrible 11. Mobility, resilience, and recovery is dumb go back to intellect, discipline, and strength 12. Nerf, nerf, nerfs 13. Can't choose crucible modes we want to play 14. Maps are entirely too small 15. Subclass configuration needs to go back to D1 ways I'm sure there are many other things, but you get the point Bungie.

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                    • I disagree with your comment on grenades, they're still pretty useless in my book, or at least some of them are. For example, I like how Swarm Grenade is so weak that people apparently don't feel too threatened by the idea of sliding through a cloud of them to shotgun you in the face, something like that should be a death sentence for anyone who attempts it. Grenades are kind of a nuisance right now, but not much else.

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                    • Anyone else here after asking Siri what the definition of TLDR is?

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                      • Jesus somersaulting Christ that’s a lot of text. How long did it take to write that lol

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                        • The situation isn't that dire.....which is what makes it all the more frustrating. Bottomline, is that this game has come to the crisis point with major in-game systems that I saw coming as far back as last May when they rolled out Warmind...and the first part of this progression system. Instead of taking in the negative feedback that the community at-large responded to it with....Bungie doubled-down and gave us the current, broken system that we have. Which is basically an RNG progression system. Where you are subject to RNG trying to get the **right** drops from a harshly limited number of weekly drops that can progress your character. Then subject to RNG again in trying to gain access to the "enhancement cores" necessary to give you any sort of choice in terms of what gear to equip from what you've already earned. The result is that game is straining player PATIENCE to the breaking point. Because what we have is a game that is PROFOUNDLY disrespectful to the player. Disrespectful of player time. Disrespectful of player choice. As we are force-fed the whole game every week or forced to pay a progression penalty. The result being a joyless, unrewarding grind where the player has little choice about how to engage the game....and where most of the rewards of the grind are being intentionally withheld behind a wall of the core economy. IOW, an extremely rigid. Extremely shallow experience that is not rewarding. A point that was really driven home when I played Anthem on PC this past week. A game that lets you freely do all the things Bungie (misguidedly) seems to think need to be withheld from the player. Despite its rough edges, I had more fun playing Anthem the last week, than I have had in months playing Destiny. So right now---its looking like Destiny is going to lose me as a player. I was thinking of splitting my time between the two games. But given how unsatisfying playing Destiny has become other than shooting things in the face....I'm starting to doubt the point of it all. The gameplay alone is not enough to hold my interest. This game needs its RPG elements to hold my interest. But those RPG systems are epically broken right now, with the game having gone full circle all the way back to Y1 of D! and its RNG progression system (Forever 29)....and Bungie stubbornly refuses to fix it. So I fully expect to see those numbers continue to fall as Anthem and The Division 2 formally roll out...and Bungie better hope that choosing to defend this hill was worth it. Because Destiny 2 may die on it.

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                          • The saddest number mentioned in your post is 14 million players/accounts. D1 sold roughly 40 million copies and had more than 30 million players tracked over its lifetime. D2 is in the middle of year two and hasn't even hit the half way mark. Unless Bungie somehow brings back the magic that D1 had I see D2 dying a slow and painful death over the next 6 months and when D3 comes out it will be DOA.

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                          • Good reads in here. I also found no re reward for my time. The gameplay,loot is all the exact same crap. Adding a bigger Imaginary light level number added no fun or satisfaction from seeing the exact same places and loot again. Still can't comprehend how anyone that played D1 for all that time would even consider D2 in the same breath.

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                          • half a mill aint small. larger than alot of cities in the US

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                            • Too much text... mmmmyy eeeeyyes😳 I'll just agree with you and say... pvpoop is broken.

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                            • I've stopped playing D2 because i hate it being stomped over and over again, PVP isn't fun anymore. I had some chances with SBMM and i've enjoyed PVP till i've quit D2 first time with warmind. I'd liked it to play with and against player at my skill level and getter slowly better every time. Getting killed or loosing wasn't so bad, because there was every time a new and fair chance to win the next match. That was on Xbox One and loved it, but since Forsake release where i'd come back, something where different. PVP felt much harder, i'd getiing killed more often, every match was so sweaty and hard. That was okay, but two weeks after Forsaken, i had no chance anymore and since then, PVP was a only a painful duty to get my weekly rewards. I never had any problems with cheaters or laggers, not on PC, not on XB O, my problem is a broken MM that face me against way better players. It's not their fault, they are good, they do what they need to do in the cruicible. But i'm a bad PVP player and i want to play with other players at my level and not getting stomped every time or need to get carried by others. I want to get AoS and need 25 HS, but how? That almost impossible if you are never a good PVPler. I've tried hard, i've tried to get better but it's too frustrating. You can't lern and get if get every time destroyed, that not fun. I don't mind getting 25 or 50 normal kills and i dn't mind getting 25 HS against players at my level. I've loved the cruicible at vanilla and CoO D2 so much with my old clan, that i've wanted to play at the Trials, i was at that time not bad and learned every day something. It was motivating and getting killed by someone who is at my level or slightly better was a push to do it better next time and so i did. But now? Getting matched against way better players is mostly only for them fun. Doing quests under these conditions made me quit, i can make some progression without hard grind and getting stomped, that frustrating. I die before i can shoot, sometimes i can't even see where the bullet comes from and i look at my radar. Destiny 2 needs a simply casual playlist with SBMM for people that doesn't care abaout waiting a while for a match. I don't care if i need to wait 5 mins, even if it takes 10 mins. Thats a price i will pay to have a enjoyable PVP experience. Bungo could even disable or nerf the rewards for al playlist like this and just give a good bounty for a rank up. And for the toxic PVP elitsts: you can't compare PVP to PVE. PVP is way harder than doing a raid and you good PVPers have such a good aming and reflexes that every PVE content is even more esier than for us PVE players. you don't like PVE, we get it, but you are much faster done with it as we. You can't compare it, PVE seems just boring to you, not hard or frustrating. No one will touch or break your experience, but you need to learn, that the PVP like it is now, isn't fair for lower skilled players. We just need a choice: Play at my level or mixed how it's now is. Bungie needs to lear that they can't force anyone to do something one hate. Quests need to be a challenge, but a reasonable. Something everyone can do with the choice for the hard way OR the long. Hardcore PVP rewards like Lunas are okay, i don't want it. PVP player should have their equivalent to raid gear and this stuff can be hard as they want, thats fair. But things like Aos? This HAS to be soable for every player! I have no problem with grind, i loved the warmind exo quests, i've got three of them at a weekend. I'd know that i need to grind alot and played 8-12 per day. Had so much fun and have forgotten the time, i was shocked after seeing thats 05:00 am, but it was worth it. The only thing in PVE i hated was the extreme time sink to max level the PL. It felt i've not making any progress, grind shouldn't feel like grind, do you know what i mean? TL;DR Bungie have to do something to make PVP enjoyble for the noobs, casuals and bad players. The players are leaving D2, bungie have to listen or they will get down and Destiny will die. Something i miss too are the epic exo quests like "a khvostov rising" and that one for the Thunder Lord. Give us the feeling of epicness and fairness back, in eveymode and apsect of the game. BTW: No, in never was in the D1 cruicible and never go. I've read about it and that's not my cup of tea, a faster, harder and way more shotung ape infested cruicible? No, thanks!

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                              • I’ll tell you what’s going on: ppl feel like they are getting screwed by Bungie when they play this game and they are tired of it. Corporations need to back the hell off- the devious tricks and manipulation that they use are so obvious in the video games now and ppl don’t want anything to do with it.

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