Still not tweaked.

Damn, I just came across this post this morning (perusing the forums) and it makes me sad becauase this post (and many others like it) are why these guns are now vaulted by pretty much everyone in community. There is literally no reason to run these guns now. They dont kill any faster than other 150s except that you can 2 crit, 1 body, but that TOTALLY goes against what gun is made for. Anyways, I think we, as a community, need to stop calling for nerfs ALL THE TIME. I get it, things are powerful and people get frustrated, but we all need to step back and look at the bigger picture, because everytime somthing gets strong, it is oblitereated with a nerf and becomes pretty much useless. I understand some people's frustration, especially when they dont have the gun, but it is a PINNACLE WEAPON! It was SUPPOSED to be better than the other 180 hand cannons, like why have this gun exist in the first place if it does nothing better than other 150s now. Everybody craved for weapons like this to grind for in crucible, it started with Redrix's and then when a hand cannon (always has been and still is the most popluar gun type) gets it, its too powerful. Recluse has a way faster TTK and mountaintop is OHKO, but i havent seen those nerfed (Id be surprised if they dont). But for the love of the cryptarch, let PvP players have GOOD loot to grind for and dont nerf if because it is the meta. There will always be the best or the most powerful guns, nothing will change that, nerf one gun, another rises up, but dont nerf the pinnacle guns if all things, come on people

if we're nerfing shit, lets start with shottys and pulses and quit whining about 2 hand cannons.

For me I can easily get it one problem -blam!-ing teammates, I keep getting shit clans, teammates not revive people who ain’t in their party, teammates that just run out against a 4 man team and also facing nothing but 4 man clans. This is -blam!-

I love seeing idiots say to just get them yourself if you want to counter them. These morons are actually advocating for less variety. Have fun playing nothing but Dust Rock Blues, Luna's Howl, and Wardcliff Coil.

I literally stopped playing D2 because of how frustrated i was of not being able to unlock Lunas in previous season. And in current one i am not even trying(almost everyone in comp has it so its even harder to unlock it). It was perfectly discussed by Fallout Plays on Youtube couple days ago. He was 100% true on that case - it is situation where the rich gets richer and the poor gets poorer. I couldnt unlock it last season so now i am just a training bag for guys who have it, and i also cant unlock it because its so hard to go competitive without it. I had only one good solution to this situation: other games. These guns are just too easy to use. They should be strong i agree but they should also require a skill like lets say The Last Word is. Where is the sense in giving better weapons to a better players already? So they could -blam!- those worst players even more? And push them away from playing the game at all? Its the worst thing multiplayer FPS shooter can do in my opinion. I was once a semi-pro pool player, and i played in many 8ball and 9ball tournaments with pro and amateur players. And guess what. Pro players were giving a handicap to those amateur ones. They were giving 1 or even 2 "frames" advantage. In a world of Destiny 2 the better players are the ones receiving an advantage over those casual amateurs. How can anyone think this could be good for the health of this game? Its complete opposite of what sport,fair competition should looks like... Its broken beyond my imagination and it cant be defended imo. I know some guys suffered to get this guns and now wants to feel better but this is a wrong path for a video game. You should feel better if your skill lets you not your gear. Edit: Thanks for all the answers guys, i respect your opinions. Yesterday i tried to play D2 again, just wanted to have some fun with Last Word. It didnt end good, i deleted D2 from console after being killed couple times with shotgun or Lunas:) I just dont have skill and patience to fight with "meta" apes. It hurts me because i once loved this game and now i want to play it again but man its too frustrating for me. I think these guns are too easy too use and they are killing too fast leaving you no time to react like no other guns in the game. And lets face it 180 handcannons are probably the easiest guns to use in D2 on console, guys be real. Hitting headshots with them is a walk in the park compared to other guns with actual recoil.

My problem with it is that you can just buy it or have people carry you to wins in comp to get it. That is absolutely wrong of Bungie to allow that. If it was just individual skill and earning it, it’d be fine.

I think that would entirely destroy the gun and not even make it worth grinding for even more. The perk is why it's good along with the archetype of the gun it's on. Nerfing the perk would make it a terrible gun, and I think Luna's Howl will decrease in value.

[quote]don't worry, bungie said in last weeks twab that they'll be addressing the hand cannon shaped elephant in the room this week.[/quote] All this talk about the "elephant" in the room....you guys are funny as hell. Hand Cannon's are finally at a good place in D2, where they actually feel viable. Maybe even too viable in some circles. Nerfing anything to do with Hand Cannons is definitely NOT the solution. Right now, [b]Scouts[/b] are in a pretty good place - especially 150's and 260's. They are operating in their respective ranges perfectly, and fulfilling the role they were meant to fulfill, perfectly. And much of this has to do with the buffs/tweaks they have received along the way since Forsaken launched. [b]Pulse Rifles[/b] - these are doing very well also. They are very dominant within their respective ranges. [b]Shotguns[/b] - these are doing extremely well within their intended ranges. Some might even argue a little "too" well. But, I have found counters to these, and they mostly involve map awareness. So, though annoying and aggravating at times, Shotguns are performing perfectly within their ranges as well. [b]Bows[/b] - bows are operating just fine as well (at least most archetypes/models that we currently have). While somewhat clunky, they operate within their respective ranges very well too. They are the ultimate Support/Cleanup/Alpha weapon in this game. They ride a very fine line of being OP and UP, and I think they currently ride that line perfectly. [b]Snipers[/b] - they are doing fine as well (contrary to popular belief). They are "THE" ultimate ranged/precision weapon in this game, and Snipers are highly rewarded for their skill. While some people may feel that flinch is a bit too drastic, I think it's a necessary evil, in order to prevent them from becoming too powerful. I think the only thing that Snipers need at this point, is a tiny ammo capacity buff in both Crucible and PvE. In Crucible they should start out with 3-4 rounds, and in PvE their reserves (with two reserve armor perks) should allow them to have more ammunition in total - upwards of 26-30 rounds. But, what needs fixed? Namely - Auto Rifles, Sidearms and SMG's. [b]Sidearms[/b] - should operate as the perfect "counter" to a blind Shotgun rush. They should be the mortal enemy of all Shotgun users. Period. And vice versa. To do this, their effective base ranges (across the board) need to be extended by about 1/2 - 1 meter, and their damage potential (across the board) needs to be increased by around 8-12% to make them more lethal in those sensitive and dangerous ranges. However, their damage fall-off [b]beyond their max optimal ranges[/b] needs to be even more strict than it is now, in order to keep them in check and not encroach on SMG/Auto Rifle territory. [b]SMGs[/b] - these should operate as a solid counter to Sidearms, a slight challenge for Auto Rifles, and a moderate challenge for Shotguns. In order to do this, they should have a more forgiving body shot TTK. The body shot damage should be increased in order to allow for this. Their current optimal TTKs are actually quite good, but given the ranges that SMG's are expected to operate from, and the increased chaos of a closer quarters fight, they can very rarely reach that optimal TTK because landing only Headshots is nearly impossible in those circumstances. Increased Body Shot damage (without touching "precision" damage), would help to circumvent that and allow SMG TTK's to be more competitive. [b]Auto Rifles[/b] - (this is a tough one, no doubt) these should operate as a solid counter to SMG's, a decent challenge for scouts, and a slight challenge for Sniper Rifles. In order to do this, they should have their precision damage and body shot damage increased, just a [i]tad[/i], to allow for slightly better overall TTKs with good accuracy. Another decent option would be to allow a slightly better "flinch" factor to Auto Rifles and leave their current TTK's as-is. This would help Auto Rifles battle against the more precision based classes of Scouts, Hand Cannons, and Snipers, and allow them to better reach their current "optimal" TTKs without having to increase damage at all. Anyways, these would be my suggestions for balancing, in regards to PvP - and there would be no need to "nerf" other Weapons which are currently doing fine in this Sandbox. I feel this would truly balance the PvP experience, with maybe only "minor" tweaks needed for "specific guns as the change moved forward.

Bad players are the problem

i get what you're trying to do with this post and get what you're trying to say in this. but 90% of the people on this post DON'T have the lunas, much less the not forgotten. for everyone saying it is way to hard this season you are so wrong in so many ways. yea a lot of people you're going to face in comp right now have one or the other.... but that only TEACHES you how to counter this gun and SHOW you that these weapons can be beaten. i got mu lunas Saturday. i am now only 1000 away from the not forgotten and i have learned so much about crucible doing so. i learned angles and new play styles entirely. BUT most importantly i learned how to counter these weapons without having them. this playlist has shown me that these weapons are really good but nowhere NEAR unstoppable AT ALL. consistently 3 tapping everyone in the lobby isn't the easiest thing on the planet. neither is killing people with these guns. being 1000 away from not forgotten and closing fast there are times that i shit on people that have these guns and wonder how they even got them in the first place. stop going in solo and getting mad that YOU can't do it or that you're not being rewarded for YOUR loss. these guns are 100% obtainable and you can do it. but don't cry on the way there... these guns don't need a nerf because anyone can beat them. they are easy in the right hands for sure but you're not going to get this weapon and immediately be the best at all. no nerf needed they are coveted weapons rewarded for those that put the time in to get these weapons. TO EARN THESE WEAPONS. sucks if you're not good enough to get them but that doesn't mean they should be nerfed because you can't beat them... and those that actually have them and don't use them KNOW that they can be beaten without having them because they have done it countless times in the playlist that teaches you and forces you to do that very thing. this conversation is old. stop crying for a nerf when people literally played countless games and busted there ass off to get these weapons that THEY TOO GOT WRECKED BY before they got them. be a good player and learn to counter these weapons.... it's not impossible. not even close

Oh my lord, enough of the nerfs, even if its a small one, cause knowing bungie, theres no such thing as small nerfs. Remember, Lunas is sort of easy to get. The gun itself is average, puny range, any other thing outside of its pitiful range, will counter it. As for Not Forgotten, anyone who earned this gun, deserves to use it in any game mode they want. They grinded for it, and they can use it whenever. I dont even have Not Forgotten, I don't mind those 2 weapons at all, easily countered if you have thumbs or a wrist if youre on PC, especially on PC where theres no recoil so ace and other longer range weapons counter them super easily. Also making them exotic wont change much. People will still run their usual, Dust Rock blues with their exotic lunas or not forgotten

[quote]So before anyone throws a fit, I have Not Forgotten. I got a group, I practiced, I succeeded and died succeeded and died over and over again, got good as a team and got it. Not Forgotten and Luna's Howl are way too forgiving and dominate the game. The gun does nothing except discourage players from playing PvP, even in quickplay. I get it. Pinnacle weapons need to be strong and PvP players needed something to grind for, but these guns have gone too far in the right direction. Pinnacle weapons should be fun and powerful in the right hands, and 180 RPM hand cannons have a very low skill requirement due to their high stability and recoil direction. This normally results in a slow TTK, but LH and NF negate this entirely with 2 headshots and a body. Ace of Spades even requires 3 headshots to kill. This results in people winning engagements because they have the better gun, rather than the better movement and aim. As for a solution to these guns, I have no idea. Nerfing them, removing then from QP, or altering them will be met with a bunch of anger and lashing out. My best ideas (not perfect by far) are: 1. Make them exotics. Maybe then people will have a harder time choosing them and their choice will matter more. 2. Make Magnificent Howl activate after three precision hits, making it a 4 shot kill on the first target and a 3 shot kill on the next, as long as you continuously hit crits. 3. Nerf the perk so it takes 3 consecutive headshots to kill. That way the gun isn't as forgiving and requires a larger amount of skill to use appropriately. 4. Make them kinetic weapons. The best primary shouldn't be able to he pairs with the best shotgun in the game honestly. (Precision shotguns need a rework. Dust Rock Blues has very few downsides compared the aggressive frame shotguns.) 5. Decrease their stability and recoil direction significantly. The guns can honestly be spammed and be affective due to the flinch the cause and their stability and recoil direction and still be very, very effective. This is especially true in team engagements, but is also true for 1v1 engagements. 6. Combinations of those above. I hope the guns aren't nerfed into the ground, but some adjustments are necessary. I don't even use mine. Edit: The other solution to this issue is one I completely forgot to mention. Buff other hand cannons. 140s should kill in 2 crit 1 body. Balance the others from there. 180s should probably stay the same or have more recoil.[/quote] Just make the gun accessible via a quest line that doesn’t involve competitive playlist or create weapons equally as good for people who play other activities. Nightfall players can get a auto rifle they can bring into quick play with the same ttk. Raiders get a pulse that can 2 burst people, all activities can present a overpowered primary to bring into quick play. That would be fair. I can’t stand the comp playlist but enjoy quick play, so for players to get low skill weapons which are sooooo overpowered doesn’t seem right. Bungie better make thorn 2 tap again since it’s exotic and will dethrone Luna’s and not forgotten.

I think alot of the problem is the accessibility .. especially solo..it sucks when you to into comp by yourself and you come out of the game with a 2.0 KD and the rest of your team doesn't break even and you lose so no progress.. players want a goal to meet and not making any progress cause of bad match ups ddossers or whatever is not a good grind.. I was thinking a win could you 100 points so great teams at least play 52 games to get NF.. and losses is always 20 points and if you actually play the objective or every point of KD is and extra 10 points , so if you lose with a 1.1 KD you get 30 points .. a loss with 2.1 would be 40 points and cap it at fifty for losses .. maybe something like that so players are making progress always but losses are significantly slower at meeting the goal and good solo players aren't punished for bad teammates .. Just a thought

Instead of nerfing, about about Bungie creating an alternative quest line for Luna's? This new quest chain would be similar to Redrix -- very long, possibly taking more than one season to finish, but does have the benefit of proliferating a clone weapon alternative so that comp rank exclusivity isn't a problem. The new quest prize should be given a different name ("Luna's Wail??"), and have both curated + random rolls. Following the Redrix template, current Luna's / NF players get the new weapon as occasional random engram drops. Initial quest completion grants a curated version, while random rolled versions can drop from future engrams. Both pinnacle crucible guns have been out for 2 seasons, so granting access via quest line sounds reasonable for the rest of the non-Comp D2 community. It would also give them another reason to stay instead of jumping ship to a new game title.

Just put all shotguns in the secondary slot and give people a choice a op hand cannon or a OP shotgun