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Edited by SKULLREAPER2005:
1/4/2019 12:05:15 AM
64
How corrupt our Guardian is (and why that’s scary)
This post assumes your guardian has
A: Done The Whisper
B: Done The Malfeasance quest
C: Stepped foot in gambit
D: Slew(?) Uldren
E: Done all The raids
This is scary because when you use whisper, you are using Xol. The worm god we killed. So with every pull of that trigger we make sure the Sword Logic is kept alive. This is insane because we resent the hive very much and had a rampage on mars killing millions upon billions of hive but then we have no issue using an incarnation of one of their gods. See where I’m coming from? Now for Malfeasance. It’s already bad enough we play gambit, but to intentionally make a Weapon of Sorrow with the intent of it being like the Thorn is quite grotesque. Yet we still get patted on the back for being a saviour to the city even though we use taken on each other for “fun”. It’s awful we play gambit simply because we use the darkness on each other! And for our insolent killing spree on the Tangled Shore just because Cayde-6 was taken down is in no way justifiable. The final nail in the coffin is us doing the raids. The scariest one I think is the Leviathan. We just roll into the home of the race who destroyed our home months earlier and just accept the stuff we get there not thinking twice about it only because it’s “better”
I’m fine personally with some of these things but I wrote this in the perspective of a Lawful Good Zavala type. Food for thought! And thanks for making it through this rant everyone!
Edit: What does everyone think about using Ahamkara as armour? And yes I do know you can become a Dredgen I just think of that immediately
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1 Replyhaha stasis(darkness) go brrrrrrrrr -every single -blam!-ing warlock main after beyond light
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Well I’m corrupted by SIVA and I’ve became the new kell of the house of devils aka devil splicers
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[quote]This post assumes your guardian has A: Done The Whisper B: Done The Malfeasance quest C: Stepped foot in gambit D: Slew(?) Uldren E: Done all The raids This is scary because when you use whisper, you are using Xol. The worm god we killed. So with every pull of that trigger we make sure the Sword Logic is kept alive. This is insane because we resent the hive very much and had a rampage on mars killing millions upon billions of hive but then we have no issue using an incarnation of one of their gods. See where I’m coming from? Now for Malfeasance. It’s already bad enough we play gambit, but to intentionally make a Weapon of Sorrow with the intent of it being like the Thorn is quite grotesque. Yet we still get patted on the back for being a saviour to the city even though we use taken on each other for “fun”. It’s awful we play gambit simply because we use the darkness on each other! And for our insolent killing spree on the Tangled Shore just because Cayde-6 was taken down is in no way justifiable. The final nail in the coffin is us doing the raids. The scariest one I think is the Leviathan. We just roll into the home of the race who destroyed our home months earlier and just accept the stuff we get there not thinking twice about it only because it’s “better” I’m fine personally with some of these things but I wrote this in the perspective of a Lawful Good Zavala type. Food for thought! And thanks for making it through this rant everyone! Edit: What does everyone think about using Ahamkara as armour? And yes I do know you can become a Dredgen I just think of that immediately[/quote] Bringing up a few points A) calus and the Leviathan are cabal yes but not the same cabal that destroyed our home, and the loyalist are even against the red legion, and seeing how calus doesn't even show a care about the city (neither a good or bad veiw/intent) only for guardians to become something better then defenders of a dead God and help him raise the true cabal empire back up. B) Whisper of the worm, yes we use it and it is a representation of xol, but how does that keep the sword logic alive? We kill the hive either way, and if you want to use the sword logic you could even say necrocasm keeps it alive as well. C) gambit, oh lovely Gambit my favorite game mode. But lore wise, Gambit is a ploy to bring out the shadows of yor. yes we may be using taken to terrorize our fellow guardians, but if you stop to think you'll see that Gambit is actually a good thing (if you speaking of killing/drawing out dark guardians that is) D) Uldren. I can see your side saying his death and out manhunt for him was unjustified, but answer me this. If Uldren killed cayde, what else would he do? Would he raise a scorn army and siege the traveler? Would he slaughter the Innocents of humanity that just wish to survive another day as he did to his own people? The way I saw it, he was a threat even past revenge, and what do guardians do to threats agianst humanity or the tower? Simple, we put a end to their rein and kill them. Now I'm not saying he had plans on the level of oryx or crota or even skolas, but he was a threat, a threat that had to be delt with. Now granted I will admit he was manipulated and was shown the wrong path, but do you really forgive someone who killed plenty of awoken, and our vanguard? Do you just give him a hug and say it's ok you killed all those people, you was misguided and their deaths don't matter. To me his death wasn't just avenging cyade, it was avenging everyone he and his scorn killed, cyade, the awoken, even the Kell of Kings (presuming they killed him after docking all his arms)
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2 RepliesOh you poor, naive little fool. Us using Whisper is keeping the sword logic alive? You do realise how you earn that xp to level up?
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1 ReplyEver hear of an idea from political theory called “the obscene underside of the law”?? Might tickle your fancy a bit.
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[quote]Brother... maybes are where the real treasure hides.[/quote] - The Drifter, [i]A Drifter's Gambit[/i]
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2 RepliesJust because I am "bad guy" does not mean I am [i]bad guy.[/i]
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Edited by Incubus: 1/4/2019 6:50:03 PMXol himself doesn’t follow the sword logic. He follows a different albeit nefarious logic. And as far as the leviathan. Calls himself invited the guardians so I’m guessing he and his troops knew the risks.
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2 RepliesYour guardian has been infected by a reaper from ME, imagine that ME and Destiny cross over. Krogans vs cabal Geth vs vex Guardians vs spectures Turians vs fallen Asari vs awoken Rachni vs hive Salerians vs ghosts Sorry completely off topic but would be fun to see.
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Don’t forget that we wiped out an entire race so badly that what was left of them disbanded their houses, and formed under one united house.
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I agree in the sense I see either a sprial out of control with our character or we assume a role not much different from Toland, Osiris, etc. We become the voice that says, you cant fight a thing you dont understand. At least that's where I see it going. Forsaken was dark but aside from the one scene in which we do have the intent to shoot uldren (personally I would not have, I'd make him live and remember what he did!), we ended up doing things for the greater good. Riven was an ememse threat, the red legion, came and attacked us for the traveller, col, was messing things up on Mars in a grand way. Yes we have now weapons of darkness and sorrow but they are extremely effective against the enemies of the light and I feel there is a reason for that. Dregan Yor, yeah he went wrong, he went out of his way to kill guardians for the sake of doing it. That is someone going to the dark yes. But I feel the drifter may be on to something. Do I like or agree with his methods? We will see, do I think he built a dangerous thing...yes absolutely. I think it's a tad early to tell what will happen.
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8 RepliesEdited by OldboyVicious: 1/3/2019 11:18:01 PMOur guardians have no morals or decision making capability. They merely do what the are told, by whoever is telling them to do something at the time. The biggest example is when the guardian is ordered to destroy some stuff by Zavala, and then minutes later, Ana Bray chines in on a secret channel and tells the guardian not to destroy the things, but to save them for research. The guardian then follows that command, with total disregard to what Zavala said. Later, when Zavala finds out, he has a stern conversation with Ana Bray, and the guardian isn't even in trouble or questioned about why they would do that. Zavala knows that guardians have no free will and blindly follow any command given. If a guardian had free will, then wouldn't Zavala be angry and tell off the guardian as well? But no. Zavala continues to give the guardian orders despite that betrayal, and the betrayal has no consequences. The only way that makes sense is if Zavala is completely aware that guardians do whatever they are told at any time. If you look at the complete story from the beginning of D1 until now, there is not a single moment that I know of where a guardian makes a decision based on their own motivation. Every single thing the guardian has done has been at the command of another person, and no order has been refused. If there are examples to the contrary that I am missing or unaware of, please post them below, so I can be more informed about the story and lore.
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2 RepliesIf this is your take on leviathan then you need to read a little more. Check out the full Nessus Story Line. You are invited by his grace, Emperor Calus to the Laviathan. First to attend his trials, second you go to clean the engine of his ship and lastly to purge the remaining forces of the Red Legion trying to take over the ship. We haven't seen the last of Emperor Calus.
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Edited by wolfsierra117: 1/4/2019 1:10:54 PMAhahhahahaha you think the guardian is corrupt now? This is nothing. In destiny 1 we literally: used thorn, a weapon of sorrow that killed hundreds of guardians for good without taking out the ghosts and corrupted one of the most famous guardians to his core. Used touch of malice, a gun made out of oryx’s soul and which was acting similarly To whisper. Used necrochasm, a gun of hive origin, speculated to have been either the other gun of the same guy who turned into dredger yor or a random gun left behind on the moon and corrupted by the hive, which then had a mind of its own and enjoyed slaughtering hive , which was then infused with the soul of crota (basically we wielded 2 of the most powerful beings in lore so far) Used black spindle, which was a sniper corrupted by the hive, and carried by the taken. Now if our guardian had these weapons and trained with them in the crucible: thorn would have killed any guardian defeated by it. We’ve had oryx whispering in our ear with touch and that’s not it, he also sapped our power to fuel an endless magazine and strengthen the bullets. We went to the black guarded to slaughter vex and destroy the heart with no other explanation than “the vex are more evil than the hive” when all we had seen of them until then was them protecting their structures. We later learn in lore that the vex were in fact trying to defeat the hive but have no clue how to. We even help them reclaim the vault of glass from the taken. So we effectively accepted the vex as evil for no reason then turned around and helped the vex fight the hive and taken because all of a sudden they’re the main evil again (which they were before we went to Venus and started mindlessly slaughtering the vex) We stepped into war with the cabal on Mars, just to get to the black guarded, slaughtered them, when all they were doing was scouting it out and fighting off the vex themselves, when they later fight the hive on the dreadnaught we decide to go -blam!- it and slaughter them there as well even though we have a common enemy and all the cabal have done to us is defeat guardians in self Defense and protect their bases. If that’s not enough we also wielded willbreaker (oryx’s sword) for shits and giggles and continued to wield a sword which was half darkness until shaxx forged a new one which was made solely from the light (which he later keeps) and we continued to have the corrupted sword. All the wars were fighting now are mostly our guardians fault. The only one that isn’t is the fallen war. We started the hive war by awakening them on the moon, we started the vex war by attacking them unprovoked, we started the cabal war on accident due to our ghosts incompetence to detect a security measure, we started the taken war as we killed crota and thus summoned oryx. And we started the siva war by taking out the fallen leadership by ourselves causing the fallen to get desperate. It’s all or guardians fault. Worst part is? The guardian doesn’t give a shit, he/she still goes out and kills everything without thinking. I believe the only reason we haven’t killed Calus so far is because we can’t find him and he willingly gives us loot to make us stronger.
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To quote Perun, "We did not choose to be Lightbearers. We do choose to be Guardians."
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Plus we kept Oryx's soul as a weapon for a while, that literally drained our life force as we used it.
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That's basically the backdraw of reviving dead people without their memories. Why should they care so long as it gets the job done, much less why they should care about the City? It's no wonder Guardians will let the Drifter steal valuables in exchange for shiny things, or why Guardians just do their own thing and sometimes turn against other Guardians. Why wouldn't they? Because morals? Well, without experience or someone to teach it to you, the concept of morality, of good and bad, are all but nonexistent. As far as our specific "chosen one" Guardian goes, pretty sure they just stick around the City because they just happen to be the kind of person willing to help out. Can't expect that of most, which is why there was the whole Guardians becoming warlords thing before the Vanguard was a thing. Delving into the Dark is more a grey thing than not, as most avoid it purely out of fear of the unknown, the reason people went against Voidwalkers. Obviously, especially considering the Drifter, the powers innate in the Deep CAN be controlled, and seemingly without much consequence(asfaik the Drifter hasn't really suffered for his efforts in creating Motes of Dark beyond being hunted by Shin Malphur). So, it really comes down to the concept of "by any means necessary" when it comes to fighting the enemies of humanity. If it can be controlled, or even if it just gets the job done with minimal casualties, why not? Our Guardians can't really be "corrupt" when the concept isn't even a thing to them unless someone is there to tell them. WE may know what might be "right" or "wrong", but what can you expect from an amnesiac just given a gun and told to shoot the big aliens?
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1 ReplyI killed a worm god with a fire stick, and a Spartan laser. I'm not worried.
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Lmao yeah and we used siva infected weapons too
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I am become death
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2 RepliesYou're one of those Lawful Good types aren't you? (Disclaimer) I wrote this before reading the last line of your post. I had quite the laugh at the coincidence. I honestly believe that Bungie is really trying to drive home that the universe isn't this whole good/evil, black/white thing that we were basically force fed in D1. (Or seemingly force fed) The D2 themes have been largely toeing the line between "dark" and "light". A lot more prominently in the recent expansions. Observe the world without that concept for a minute. Big machine comes from the sky and gives us freaking super powers. SWEET! But when you think about the other races attacking us when you look at it objectively it's sort of like, duh, why aren't there -more- races attacking us? (Assuming there are more races out there). But we've seen a lot of interactions with the other races where there are sects that aren't completely hellbent on our destruction. So you have to ask yourself are they truly evil? I don't think this is a cut and dry "us vs them" kind of deal. I mean, Calus literally invited us on the Leviathan. The Hive Sword Logic? My interpretation of that is if you die to something or someone that bested you, your fate is deserved. No hard feelings, just fact. Survival of the fittest. (I honestly think we should have our own Throne World by now) The Drifter seems to be the only one who recognizes that you can do much more with the Light -and- Dark than just one side or the other. Aside from his hole motivation on not wanting to freaking die to Shin I think he'll have quite an interesting part to play in Joker's Wild.
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7 RepliesGunning down Uldren and the Barons isn't much of a morality issue. They keep trying to pretend it is, even having Fikrul whine "blah you killed my friends you monster." Uh-huh, and remind me again why? Maybe you forgot what you were doing, you scaly four-armed necromancer. The whole "if you kill a mass murderer you're just as bad" thing is tired and awful, let's dumpster that. Malfeasance is troublesome, yeah. And Whisper could be a deception, but we know better than that. Leviathan, though. We're not helping out somebody who attacked the City. Calus is an exile, he had nothing to do with the Red Legion. If he's to be trusted, which I've got my reservations about, he was working toward making the Cabal empire borderline utopian before he was cast out, but the only thing we really have to go on is his word. Either way, he's distinct from the Cabal we've fought before, and even then, our first encounter is an attempt to kill him, which gives him a chance to earn, at least, our begrudging cooperation in the lairs. Last Wish was us carrying out the orders of Mara, Petra, and the Techeuns, bringing down an incredibly dangerous Taken commander at the same time. Scourge of the Past sees us disarming a walking nuke in the less populated areas of the Last City. I don't think the raids are much of an argument for gray morality.
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1 ReplyThere appears to be a point accumulating for all of this. My bet is that we're going to see a retelling of the Thorn and Last Word story between our character and Uldren. Our character slowly becoming the outcast and Uldren becoming the corrupt white-knight. Proving that tabula rasa doesn't mean a guardian is always born good. The lore card ghost stories add so much to build up plot support: stories of ghosts resurrecting their guardians, not sure if they made the right decision. Stories of corrupt guardians, guardians that have gone mad. And then you have The Drifter, Ulan Tan, Toland - guys that believe darkness should be harnessed to overcome it. That the light can be just as bad. I think Uldren will be a dividing point. Where we see the guy's true colors, but the tower is giving him a chance because of the philosophies surrounding the risen. Where blind faith in the traveler means blind faith that Uldren will be good. And our objections through observation fall on deaf ears as we're viewed as being corrupted by revenge.
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Edited by TheWagn: 1/3/2019 3:56:39 PMSee you gotta remember... Guardians are not superheroes. We aren't the avengers. Guardians are badass. They are immortal beings on a quest for ultimate power. Most just defend the city because it's in our job description now. Also acquiring tools like the whisper and Mal give us insight into our enemies and allow us to better understand the universe. Until we understand our enemies, they will forever have a leg up on us.
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1 ReplyEdited by Pippo: 1/3/2019 10:40:31 PMTouch of Malice was insane as well. Our Guardian apparently knows no limit for his/her thirst for power. But since we're player characters we won't go down a dark path. Imagine using all this stuff without going crazy. Like that Risen in golden armor who killed entire villages, and in the end just was abandoned by his Ghost, who decided he's too dangerous for more resurrections. That lore with the Awoken Guardian who was brought back to the Reef was also an eye-opener. He had no clues about his previous life, while the Queen and the Awoken remembered everything about him. They tested his limits as a Guardian and how much he was changed by the Traveler. That's when Mara Sov decided to not fully trust the Traveler's spawn. [spoiler]Uldren as Guardian has huge potential. I hope they get this right. More controversy, what's right and what's wrong, etc etc[/spoiler]
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Well...Banshee does say , "Remember who the good guys are.".
