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Edited by Spawn:
12/3/2018 1:20:26 PM
215
So I decided to test and see how nonexistent Bungie's PvP matchmaking logic actually is...
I made a new/alt account and started a new guardian. Made a Warlock but that doesn't matter for this.
Played the Homecoming mission and then Spark, unlocked crucible and hopped in. Quickplay, mind you.
A level 4 warlock with nothing but white gear.
Very first match: One guy with a Not Forgotten.
My team mates weren't mentally handicapped and it was Vostok so I guess the field was more or less evened and we won the match.
But the very second match: A four stack, with at least one Luna. They completely stomped us and emote'd at the end.
Third match: An ongoing control match. No big teams, only a double. But I entered, as expected on the losing side. I got supered three or four times within the first thirty or fourty seconds and I had no means of fighting back because to this day, almost five years of Destiny total, you still enter ongoing matches without any super energy. Oh yeah, and there were Luna's Howls a plenty too.
Next match: Fairly decent team distribution and no notable amount of pinnacle weapons. Instead all people played super sweaty and tryhard and I lost count of how many Nova Warps on the enemy team got multikills. The alarm sound of the enemy team getting power play after power play kind of made me lose count before we lost around 50 to 150 with four people in my team going negative while only one person in the opposing team was negative and one went 20.0 in KD
The game after that: Ongoing control match again, score was 44 to 97. I decided I was done, for now, and bailed out.
After three matches I got "breaking up those teams for better matches". And it never worked because these kinds of matches and constellations are all you get, even as a fresh player with horrible gear and no abilities to defend oneself.
Bungie, Crucible is in an absolutely abysmal state. Matchmaking is just one of the issues. There are way more of them.
And here you are, revealing patch notes for Black Armory entirely ignoring the immense need PvP has for quality of life improvements resulting in massive frustration only shortly after you took a few right steps with Forsaken. If you omit changes or nerf things for a reason or great master plan then you clearly failed to state or hint and reasons for your actions and should that be the case then you are making a big mistake in gambling with trust not yet fully restored.
And personally, I'm sorry, but I no longer think anyone in the studio is listening. It seems to me now that you sit on your ears and only pay attention when you feel the situation gets dire. The picture I got from the forums and feedback is drastically different from the things you adress or miss to adress. It merely feels like you deliberately or accidentally smoothly move between critique and and feedback. And I think that's just indefensible given the dire situation D2 was in before Forsaken.
Honestly, to this day I think Destiny in PvE and PvP has massive potential, way more than has been utilized in any content drop or QoL fix. And after so many years seeing this potential left behind unused is frustrating and irritating.
I wanted to get this off my chest because, I guess at the core of it all, I like Destiny. And I like playing it. But I think that not adressing issues and problems and pretending that everything is fine does not help. Neither in the short and certainly not in the long run.
[spoiler]Moderator edit: This thread has been moved to #Feedback forum so that other Destiny players can weigh in. [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/139533839/0/0] See Cozmo's thread here[/url] for more information about the #Feedback tag and its uses.
Feel free to private message the moderator who moved your post, link to topic for further clarification about why this topic was moved.[/spoiler]
English
#feedback
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Fair play for putting down what many players have known for a while in a consistent and reasonable approach, but it will fall on deaf ears. They cater too much to sweaty streamers, who like being able to go into QP with lunas and NF and stomp teams so they have 'awesome' footage to show in their videos. Look at the forges...day 1, hard as nails...day 2, they nerf the light level. Clearly they did this deliberately, not caring that it was a big FU to the non streamers who actually did get the clear at the higher light level. Bungee is very elitist in its attentions.
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2 RepliesProper matchmaking NEEDS to happen. And fast. The Matchmaking Considerations should be: 1.) Solo vs. Team Cue (where 3 or more = team, or 2 or more for that matter...) 2.) Season Rank (resets taken into account) 3.) K/D 4.) Connection Once the criteria is met, a match is created. Obviously, as criteria is "not" met, then the "search" range expands. [b]Let me explain #3 (K/D) quickly -[/b] this would take into account individual K/D, as well as "overall" team K/D. Lets say you have a lobby of folks with 1.5 K/D's on Team A, but Team B has a lobby of 5 with around 0.9 - 1.1 K/D's. A 6th player with a K/D of 2.0 - 2.1 would/could be added to Team B to help "balance" out the overall K/D ratios of the team. This helps matchmaking by allowing Team B to compete with Team A thanks to their "star" player, plus allows that "star" player to find games easier, even though he might be of a much higher skill level than most the lobby. He wouldn't sit in cue for 5 hours waiting for a lobby to match with, because the system would "balance" him into that lobby. Anyways, this would cut down the issues with ALL fields of PvP tremendously, and maybe make it fun again. Sure, the sweats will be pissed, because they will have an issue farming noobs for clips, but the overall experience of PvP for [u]everyone[/u], will be loads better. I think majority should rule in this one. I mean, shouldn't sweats "want" to play against people of their skill range anyways? Isn't it about "getting good" in the first place? And don't worry sweats - with a logarithm like the one above, as criteria is "not" met, it WILL expand the search range. This will mean, that occassionally you will definitely match up against lower tier players, and still be able to kick back and get your demo clips with relative ease.
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[quote]I made a new/alt account and started a new guardian. Made a Warlock but that doesn't matter for this. Played the Homecoming mission and then Spark, unlocked crucible and hopped in. Quickplay, mind you. A level 4 warlock with nothing but white gear. Very first match: One guy with a Not Forgotten. My team mates weren't mentally handicapped and it was Vostok so I guess the field was more or less evened and we won the match. But the very second match: A four stack, with at least one Luna. They completely stomped us and emote'd at the end. Third match: An ongoing control match. No big teams, only a double. But I entered, as expected on the losing side. I got supered three or four times within the first thirty or fourty seconds and I had no means of fighting back because to this day, almost five years of Destiny total, you still enter ongoing matches without any super energy. Oh yeah, and there were Luna's Howls a plenty too. Next match: Fairly decent team distribution and no notable amount of pinnacle weapons. Instead all people played super sweaty and tryhard and I lost count of how many Nova Warps on the enemy team got multikills. The alarm sound of the enemy team getting power play after power play kind of made me lose count before we lost around 50 to 150 with four people in my team going negative while only one person in the opposing team was negative and one went 20.0 in KD The game after that: Ongoing control match again, score was 44 to 97. I decided I was done, for now, and bailed out. After three matches I got "breaking up those teams for better matches". And it never worked because these kinds of matches and constellations are all you get, even as a fresh player with horrible gear and no abilities to defend oneself. Bungie, Crucible is in an absolutely abysmal state. Matchmaking is just one of the issues. There are way more of them. And here you are, revealing patch notes for Black Armory entirely ignoring the immense need PvP has for quality of life improvements resulting in massive frustration only shortly after you took a few right steps with Forsaken. If you omit changes or nerf things for a reason or great master plan then you clearly failed to state or hint and reasons for your actions and should that be the case then you are making a big mistake in gambling with trust not yet fully restored. And personally, I'm sorry, but I no longer think anyone in the studio is listening. It seems to me now that you sit on your ears and only pay attention when you feel the situation gets dire. The picture I got from the forums and feedback is drastically different from the things you adress or miss to adress. It merely feels like you deliberately or accidentally smoothly move between critique and and feedback. And I think that's just indefensible given the dire situation D2 was in before Forsaken. Honestly, to this day I think Destiny in PvE and PvP has massive potential, way more than has been utilized in any content drop or QoL fix. And after so many years seeing this potential left behind unused is frustrating and irritating. I wanted to get this off my chest because, I guess at the core of it all, I like Destiny. And I like playing it. But I think that not adressing issues and problems and pretending that everything is fine does not help. Neither in the short and certainly not in the long run. [spoiler]Moderator edit: This thread has been moved to #Feedback forum so that other Destiny players can weigh in. [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/139533839/0/0] See Cozmo's thread here[/url] for more information about the #Feedback tag and its uses. Feel free to private message the moderator who moved your post, link to topic for further clarification about why this topic was moved.[/spoiler][/quote] You hit the nail on the head pretty hard, but at this point in the game, it would probably cost way more money to fix PvP, than what they're making in revenue. So it unfortunately makes sense to make small "patches" aka the nerfs everyone hates, and focus on D3 than to invest into a lost cause. But that's all on [i][b]if[/b][/i] they make D3 at this point lol.
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This is one of the most discussed topics I've ever seen on the forums, and the fact that Bungie hasn't come in here with a response of any kind yet is really quite telling. Take notice of the silence folks.
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4 RepliesEdited by AngryTormentor: 12/3/2018 10:39:18 AMI think it's fair to say the crucible is screwed beyond all repair. When a developer admits the matchmaking is broken I think we're at a point where nothing is going to change. They either need to temporarily take down the entire PVP side and rework it or just scale it down and focus on PVE. I'd rather see focus go on the things that ARE actually working instead of them fighting a losing battle with a system they can't seem to control.
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2 RepliesQuickplay doesn't have sbmm anymore. Bungie aren't claiming that it does. There was really no need to test anything.
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I'm beginning to think that Bungie is starting to realize how bad Crucible is, that they've screwed the pooch on it horrendously, and it's going to take a lot more than they ever expected to fix it, and they don't want to admit it, or look at it, or even acknowledge that it exists.
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6 RepliesThis happens because nobody is playing this crummy game anymore.
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They can't do it properly and they know it. Granted, if you were put up against equals all the time you should on average win 50%. But they force it artificially through very lopsided matches.
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Edited by Hydrilus: 12/3/2018 5:00:38 PMI had a Gambit match the other day where we got completely owned by a 4-stack. Got the "breaking up teams" message during the next queue and was matched with them again. If that's not proof of non-existent matchmaking logic then I don't know what is. Bungie is a seasoned triple-A developer with 700+ employees...is it really that hard to mark players (or a team) as one to NOT match with the next time around?
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8 RepliesI am to the point I actually HATE crucible right now. Luna and not forgotten everywhere yet I am in quickplay and only played a handful of competitive before I decided I really hate cheaters and competitive so no luna or not forgotten for me. I am not the best pvp player and have not even claimed to be good but I normally end up with over a 1.0 and 15+ kills. Lately I have been doing good to get 10 kills and out of my last 5-6 matches I got 3 kills in 2 of them 0 kills in another and not much better in the others. I was being spawn killed with lunas and not forgotten more times than I could count then killed with supers back to back the second I spawned then even shotties the second I spawned. There was literally nothing I could do as I couldn't even move before I was dead most of the time. All this and I almost forgot to even mention how bad the lag is against these people. It seems every single time I see a luna or not forgotten user they are lagging and teleporting all over the map and all I can think is (Oh I see how you got your competitive weapon). There needs to be some major changes done in crucible.
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Dude, with all due respect, you need to make better use of your time. Bungie doesn't care about "balance". Even some things from the past (D1 or D2) that were INSANELY out of whack, Bungie just left it for far too long. I appreciate the research, and insight though. I agree, Crucible's a mess.
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This game/developer is soo fûcked-up beyond salvation i'm looking for another pvp game on PS4. Can anyone give me a fun alternative ?
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2 RepliesJust had my own f*ck you from Bungie with matchmaking. My team including my self random solo players trying to have fun. Our opponents 6 man stacked clan all shotgun sliding. the kicked the map was Vostok and they still main shotguns on it. Not only shows Bungie's match making is utter trash and needs to burn in hell but also how stupid shotguns are that even on one of the largest maps we got players still crutch on it. If Destiny 2 dies it is not cause of Activision but cause of Bungie.
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I never entered the pvp comp, and now i'm doing the 10 matches for the quest that i have , and man , i dont want to come back ever again , theres no matchmaking... It just put you wih whomever is available. Impossible to rank up as a solo.
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18 RepliesHere's the thing, my dude. THERE IS NO MATCHMAKING. They just find the least laggy match, and that's all they care about. Too many people cried about having fair and balanced matches when SBMM was turned on, so they cut it off. Even in this thread you can see all the people TERRIFIED of the mere idea that they'd actually be subjected to fair matches again so they lash out. "Bad players should just stay out of crucible" Completely ignoring the fact that without those bad players all they'd have are the good ones they can't beat and they'd be right back to hating crucible.
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3 RepliesBro this game came out in 2014 and its never gotten any better only worse. I have been saying what im about to say to you for 2 years. Complaining on the forums does nothing to change it, the message Bungie gets is, " hey they're complaining because they are playing the game no need to change I suppose because they are actually playing the game." The only thing that will get this changed is a mass exodus from the game and NO MORE MONEY! People have to quit pre ordering these shite expansions. Go back to D1 my man the crucible there is way better.
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5 RepliesDude. The only reason they are not fixing this is that there are not enough players. People will have to wait for 30 to 40 minutes to find a match - in their ping, within their level, withing their skill level, withing their loadout. And imagine people who have grinded for 1000 hours to get the god rolls for PvP and suddenly they have to play against others like them - ofcourse they will drop the game - D2 PvP is about having the best loadout and stomping people without it. Thahts why the TTK is done in a such a way, thats why the matchmaking is done in such a way. It's all part of what make people feel good and it's grinding or OP weapons and armor and then killing people who don't have it. Its like that in Destiny, it's like that in The Division - all games that have PvE and PvP tied - it's like that. If you want serious PvP you better find games that everything is equal - CS GO, TF2, Overwatch, Quake Champions ... D2 is just a circle jerk for people with a lot of free time on their hands.
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Quickplay matchmaking is doing what it's supposed to do: providing regional, low ping, matches over skill. If you don't like it that's one thing but [b]it's not broken.[/b] Competitive matchmaking on the other hand is not doing what it's supposed to do: match players of equal rank, [b]competitive matchmaking is broken.[/b] That's what you should be testing and reporting on, the absurd situations where new solo player at 0 Glory gets put against sweaty 4 stack that already earned pinnacle rewards. Did you see that guy reaching top rank on day 1 of this season, stomping people way below his rank all day? That shows you how patheticly bad Bungie's Crucible team is at their job. It should be impossible to reach top rank in 1 day. If Competitive had healthy population then it should be impossible because games at the top ranks would not last a couple of minutes, they would be close matches spawning several rounds extending your climb beyond 24 hours. If Competitive did not have a healthy population (as was the case) then it should be impossible because games at the top ranks could not be assembled by the matchmaker without prolonged waiting in orbit, once again extending the climb beyond 24 hours.
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1 ReplyFirst of all, SBMM < CBMM Y’all think, “Alright I’ll hop into some quick play to hang out and stuff. HOLY CRAP I JUST GOT SMOKED BY THAT TEAM!” Or, “OH MAN IT HAPPENED AGAIN! I QUIT THIS GAME SUCKS” Comes back after a few weeks, “AGAIN! UGH!” You ever think maybe your just not great at crucible and then don’t ever practice, hoping bungie fixes it. Only way for bungie to “fix it” in your minds is SBMM. Meaning, longer matchmaking times, every game is completely sweaty, quickplay is just competitive but with 6 people, you get matched against people who just got the game, and then you still get stomped and blamed bungie. If you just comeback to something, your not going to be good at it. I’m sorry, but it’s true. Someone saying, “well I played a few matches and got matched against pvp gods using crutch weapons!” Doesn’t mean that with jack. Matchmaking isn’t broken, it’s what it should be. Your WiFi broken? Your gonna be matched against people with broken WiFi. But you got good WiFi? Then great, we’ll put you on the level playing field with everyone. Then it’s fair. But then you lose a few times. Now suddenly the game is totally unfair because you find people better than you. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not great at the game either. But it’s a fair. It’s who is better at the game, best reactions, best weapons(which require a lot of time), and best strategy. Now you gotta think, how can you beat them. Not, “Oh I give up this game is broken because it doesn’t make it fair.” That’s exactly what it does. You can outgun a lunas howl, or not forgotten etc. you choose your battles and be smart about it. Not, “Ok so this guy has a lunas howl and we are at close range, better rush him with a shotgun!” No. If they have the weapon, then you know they have the aim and skill to counter a shotgun rusher. Instead retreat, find your team, find a longer range area, or even just don’t engage entirely unless you are confident you can beat him. That’s what makes someone better, not complaining to bungie that because you haven’t played in a week or two, then you should be placed against worse people. What I’m trying to say, is SBMM isn’t going to make things better for you or anyone else, it’s just going to make things worse. Additionally, oh great you get blueberry teammates, awesome. Now just try your best. That’s all you can do. What makes quick play “quickplay” is that there is no penalty to losing. None. So if you want to get better at the game, then quickplay is where you need to be.
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3 RepliesEdited by TheWagn: 12/3/2018 2:52:03 PMEveryone keeps crying about matchmaking. Is every game supposed to be people you can beat? I just don't really get it. Not every match is going to be even. Unless of course you want to wait 10-20 minutes between games to find a match. I think part of the reason is the player pool is getting smaller so the people in pvp are usually the ones who are pretty good. All the scrubs have vacated. I for one like playing better teams. I won't ever improve curb stomping noobs.
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Couldn't agree more. Lack of matchmaking and balance issues are ming boggling
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100% agreed
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So you join a quickplay match expecting SBMM and you get CBMM. What did you expect? Not saying CBMM is working either but still.
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Um yeah, we already know it's like that? You aren't expected to do well your first game. I just went into my second PC game as a level 9 and went .65 cause I can't aim with mouse and KB yet. I have Luna's howl and am pretty close to mountain top on Xbox. Planning on going for not forgotten on Xbox too, and I faced not forgottens and Luna's and telestos on PC, and btw telesto is way better with a mouse cause you can basically paint the walls with it. I haven't even found a shotgun yet and I had a few shoved down my throat. But I lived lol.
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Would you mind doing a few more games? I feel like 4 might not be correctly representing crucible as a whole. I'm also curious if this is different between all platforms. Also thank you for testing this.
