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10/18/2018 1:01:09 PM
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They're a weird gun to balance.
Think about it, they're a handcannon at a distance in some respects. You kind of hit the nail on the head and say sit back and range the ads. The problem is there's no risk and all reward for that.
They can do 1 of 2 things to make the weapon compete with other weapon types. They can make the gun inaccurate - which is against the social contract of a scout rifle. Or they can lower the damage knowing you'll connect every shot.
Handcannons had a similar problem in D1 - they had high damage and high accuracy. They introduced bloom to offset the accuracy when you spam the trigger. The reason is, you can fire 4 shots and get a kill while a target moves, but an auto rifle or pulse will miss some shots naturally because of the rate of fire. So the risk was lower on HC and reward was higher than most guns.
I think they don't want PVE to be a safe cheese mode. Scout rifles have that potential to be that. So its either make them miss the target more, or lower the damage output overall. My guess is that higher rof scouts will be better on the damage output overall compared to the rest.
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Bows already do that lol
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I’ll never understand this thinking of risk reward in regards to weapons.. Should be absolutely a non factor.. You don’t need to get very close with hand cannons any how.. The range on them is far to long.. A scout should do more damage than a pistol any day..
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I think they were balanced just fine in Destiny. 1. Handcanons had a tad better DPS, and also were much more useful at close quarters. Scout is too clunky for close quarters and all you can hope for is a very lucky headshot, as bodyshops weren't powerful enough. 2. Autorifles totally shredded scouts in their effective range. Also, they are more forgiving for missing headshots. 3. Pulse rifle did more damage per burst while having similar burst rate as scouts have fire rate. But as range grew, some bullets from bursts started missing headshots and scouts began to shine with their much more reliable headshots. 4. In their effective range scouts outclassed snipers thanks to convenience and ammo economy. To me it all seems (and feels) very balanced
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and for exactly the reason you have put down, is the reason few will use them.. they just don't work in the game we are playing.
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Actually got that backwards. Scout rifles are easy to balance. The problem is that pulse-rifles are tricky to balance...and SRs and ARs often wind up getting nerfed to make room for PRs in the sandbox. Also Hand cannons are a weapon class that shouldn't really exist....so they have always been difficult to balance. So they can easily outclass SRs if you dont' limit their range or their magazine sizes.
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My heart's in the right place, but i get what you mean - its where your starting point is for balance. Shotguns shouldn't really exist in a high movement and aerial game like this. If D1 launched and only had fusion rifles, no one would have thought otherwise -- you know because its the future and energy is more effective against armored aliens and a birdshot isn't.
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Edited by kellygreen45: 10/18/2018 8:57:29 PM[quote]Shotguns shouldn't really exist in a high movement and aerial game like this.[/quote] Disagree. Shotguns are part of the arsenal in Titanfall games. Pilots in Titanfall can run RINGS around Guardians.....but shotguns are situational weapons in Titanfall 2...DESPITE having twice the range and twice the stopping power of shotguns in Destiny. The reason why shotguns are a "problem" in Destiny has nothing to do with shotguns. It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that primary weapons are UNDERPOWERED. Bungie wants to force a "Halo-like" TTK and "interesting gunfights" on a game where players move entirely too fast. But that slow TTK isn't fast enough to enforce the RANGE limitations necessary to keep shotguns situational weapons. IOW. You can have shotguns in a game with augmented mobility...and still have a healthy sandbox in PVP. But that demands that primary weapons kill faster than Bungie is willing to permit...and the result would be a game that plays very differently. You don't have gun fights in Titanfall. Its a game of positioning and movement. Its about flanking your opponent and getting the drop on them....and killing them before they realize what's going on. Bungie wants the speed of movement....but is unwilling to accept the speed of gun play that has to go along with it.
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The gunfight is what makes Destiny unique, so not having shotguns and only fusion rifles would solve that problem. If the TTK is too fast on primaries, then you just pick one and it'll get the job done. Won't have the flavor or experience per shot/engagement. Obviously they can't just remove them from the game. But not having that archetype in the game would close the contradiction you mentioned. I think that's where the D2 vanilla system wanted to go, but they knew they couldn't just put shotguns in the heavy slot - it had to be fusions and snipers to be fair. Right now, Bungie wants the speed of movement, the slower speed of gunplay, but is in a bind because of the speed of kill on one type of weapon (and its popularity) All hypothetical - i don't think there will ever be a solution where they can have their cake and eat it too.
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[quote]so not having shotguns and only fusion rifles would solve that problem.[/quote] No. It breaks the game on the PVE side....and makes it unidimensional, predictable and stale on the PVP side. Which is what this community found out when Bungie basically DID remove them from the game (by making them "power weapons" and ruthlessly restricting their ammo) for vanilla Destiny 2. Bottom line is that the game is at a tipping point. If you want a game where TTK is slow, and there is a premium on shooting accuracy in primary fights....then the game has to tolerate shotguns NOT being situational weapons. So people have to develop the skills to counter their aggressive use. If you want a game where shotguns are situational weapons for close-combat....then the game has to tolerate a TTK that is about 30% faster than what is is right now (IOW, down to about 0.6 seconds). At that speed, you now have primary weapons that kill fast enough to allow you to stand your ground and fight off shotgun rushes. But you also wind up with a game that is much more about 1v1 duels than "team fire". Infact, team fire will melt you so fast, that it'll be faster than most people can react.
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Don’t forget Bows. I think Bungie diminished the effectiveness of Scout Rifles to make Bows seem more attractive. Ever since Forsaken shipped, Bows have been my go to Weapon of choice for mid-far distance engagements. Before Forsaken, that role would have been filled by a Scout Rifle.
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yeah, i agree. I feel like bows are really gimmicky. Just there to be a selling feature for Foresaken. They wedge them in there between scout rifles and snipers at the cost of the purpose of those two weapon types. Same thing with SMGs. another gimmicky addition to put "value" into Destiny 2. "Look look! new weapon type!" But, what's their real purpose? what role are they filling? And look, they're languishing now. forgotten by the developers as they focus on the New Shiny.
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Yeah I didn't think about that either. Tbh, outside of jade rabbit and mida I've never found a scout that I would main. Closest was Nifelheim Frost, but that was just a fool's mida.
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Good point.... ...and the aim-assist on most bows is ridiculously high.
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I was surprised they did that. I'm so used to bows from horizon zero dawn and far cry 5 that I thought it would have more draw time, more arch, and longer travel time let alone the aim assist.
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Yeah. I was a bow-user in HZD....and the aim assist makes them almost ridiculously easy in PvE. FUN as hell....but ridiculously easy to use. ...and I think that's why they did it. The wanted them to be easy to use, in order to gain community acceptance in PVE. While the draw time would make for a really high skill-floor if you wanted to use one in PVP.
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Edited by blade329: 10/18/2018 5:45:27 PM[quote]The problem is there's no risk and all reward for that.[/quote] There may be no risks, but there is less reward in Gambit. You don't get the motes. That's okay for the team, but not so much when you are doing bounties.
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and that is exactly the type of give and take weapons need.. unfortunately, in the rest of the game is doesn't work so well an dyou sit back and pick everything off with zero risk to yourself or your team.
