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Edited by Speaker: 10/2/2018 4:36:40 PM
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Zavala vs Ikora, who had it right? the cost of grief...

Everyone felt the loss of Cayde-6, none more than the Vanguard. I think most people are discounting the power of loss and the way it has altered Ikora and Zavala's relationship forever. And it has driven a rift between the two remaining members of the Vanguard. This development in their dynamic as a team, has exciting potential for future developments to our story. The community either despises Zavala for his inaction or praises him for his duty to the city. It is my opinion that Zavala is one of the bravest and most devoted Guardians of the Traveler, but he is not without flaws in his character, and outright cowardice is not one of them. Before I continue, I love this expansion. The fact that player created lore exists means we are helping shape the universe through our actions; the rift between Ikora and Zavala created a rift in the community, We being part of the story could once again impact the future progression of this narrative because of opinions contrary and parallel to mine, and THAT is why I love this series. This moment down the road 'could' color our interactions and the Vanguards interactions. As far as classes go in my opinion, duty and devotion aside; Titans and Warlocks could not be further apart. Warlocks seek knowledge to expand our reach and create the next golden age, and Titans fiercely protect what remains of the last. Warlocks delve deep into the world searching for lost technology and stories from the Golden age, while Titans are deployed in a military fashion to tactically strike at enemies. One could say that a Titan, typically, does not choose where to go on his/her own; the Vanguard chooses the target and the Titan unleashes chaos on the target, where as Warlocks are more independent; following leads and clues wherever they may point to the conclusion of their quest. It was Cayde that held these two Vanguard components together, with his jokes, his wisecracks and his nature. When news of their teammates death was delivered both were stricken with grief. Watching the cutscene; you see Ikora; she is visibly upset. She has passed one stage of grief which is denial, she is in the second stage which is anger; at Uldren, and that she wasn't there to stop it. This is further supported by the fact that she turns on Zavala for what she calls "cowardice" and an unwillingness to seek justice for a friend. We leave the Tower when Ikora is entering the bargaining phase of her grief, when she enlists our help to find Uldren and bring him to Justice; I would hazard to postulate; She is looking for closure and solace at the prospective death of Caydes murderer... Zavala is a different story, and like most battle-hardened soldiers; postpones processing his grief (whether it is necessary or not should be the question) in the interest of maintaining his duty and upholding his vow as a Titan to be a wall on top of the wall, and protect the Last City; not an easy or smooth Job. It is easy to draw a conclusion that based on his spoken reaction, Zavala is afraid, guilty of the cowardice Ikora accuses him of. I would state with every degree of confidence that this is only true in the most marginal way. *Hold on- I know, I said that Zavala is not a coward. yet I contradicted myself by saying there is marginal truth to his cowardice. I say margin because a coward would have abandoned his duties long ago, even when he was doubtful during his exile when the Red Legion attacked he still organized a resistance on Titan and led the charge, after we returned with our light, to reclaim our home and the Traveler from Ghaul. The roar he unleashed, as he faced his death at the end of a Centurians pulse rifle, should only cement the evidence that Zavala is anything but a coward, yet when the death of his friend came he could barely face it. It is my opinion that Zavala has barely finished processing his denial in the face Caydes death. By Denial; I mean his unwillingness to face the overwhelming sense of anger he feels at the murder of his friend, in the interest of maintaining an even keel, his authority, and his station as a figurehead of the Titan Orders. Zavala's fear of his own feelings and what they 'could' do to his ability to execute his office, is the only side of Zavala that you could even begin to stretch the definition of a Coward. Furthermore, Zavala is resisting the grieving process, which is not only unhealthy but very common. One could argue that after seeing Caydes body, His denial passed in private, and he is now [u]angry[/u] (stage 2 of the process) at [b]us[/b] for leaving on a Quest to bring Uldren to justice, an act he characterizes as revenge, something that is offensive to him if it puts the city at risk. His anger could stem from a resentment of his duty; which prevents him from doing it himself. Perhaps he feels if things were different, he would be hunting down Uldren in our place. I am no lore scholar, but i understand the grieving process having lost two close family members. And the lore item for Abide the Return supports the theory that Zavala is still procesing the grief of Caydes death even after we have left on our Revenge/Justice quest. When Kamala Rior asked for the Guardians help in defending the Dreaming, Zavala did not respond the same way he did to Caydes death. [quote]"The Vanguard stands with the Reef," Zavala calls, strong and true. Kamala turns to look at him, shocked, and he smiles: apologetic, genuine, honorable.[/quote] It is in this moment, I believe, that Zavala finally processes the final stage of grievance; acceptance; Of Caydes death, of his role in the universe, and of the fact that we must fight for our friends; hardly, the response of a coward. Like Ikora asked, if we don't fight for our friends who are we fighting for? Like Ikora, Zavala shares these values, and while Ikora whose wisdom is sound, if not challenged at times, was able to process these emotions with the goal of maintaining the illusion of a unified Vanguard. While arguably healthy, in her grief she was prepared to lead a full scale invasion of the reef. Think about that a moment, a full-scale operation may have destroyed the reef, countless lives could have been lost especially if the [b]enemy[/b] took advantage of our weakened and extended state. Alternatively, a grieving Zavala would have counseled doing nothing. Allowing the corruption to go unnoticed, possibly leading to our demise. My point is that both ways of thinking are wrong because they are motivated by the emotions associated with grief. Ikora would risk it all for the sake of revenge; and yes, revenge IS what she wanted, even though she insisted it was Justice. Her venom was motivated by the anger of her grief, and if you seek peace from anger in the demise of the one who wronged you, you are out for revenge.Opposite Ikora, Zavala's fear of losing the city again motivates him to dig in, repair, reinforce and prepare for the worst. His denial of the developing situation in the reef, is heavily tied to his denial of his feelings on Caydes death, As is his decision not to aid us. The continued insinuation that he is a coward is both ignorant, and the response of a pugnacious majority, to a multifaceted and complicated character; and the insinuation that Ikora had it right is patently incorrect. In the end, we, the enigma of the Traveler, "The Guardian" had it right, we went alone, and we took care of it. Now that new developments in the Dreaming city have come to light, Zavala is back on board, all because he grieved in his way and in his time. It is unclear to me at least whether Ikora truly believes that she was wrong. It stands to reason that she would see the necessity in Zavala's choice, but her streak of brashness could negate that. If anyone knows a lore entry that confirms or debunks this, please share. TL;DR: Ikora is still impulsive in her grief over Cayde and would risk everything for the sake of revenge, and Zavala would postpone his grief over fear of being unable to execute his office of Titan Vanguard if he faced it The question should be, did either character process their grief correctly, and what is the right way to deal with death? The question I pose to Guardians is: At what point do you finish processing grief? do you ever?
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  • I think the proper response was in the middle of Zavala and Ikora. To send everyone as Ikora suggested is a knee jerk reaction to an outrageous injustice. Not only is it an unrealistic expectation for every guardian to "take The Reef by storm", it is outright dangerous. Not only do you risk sending everyone into something you haven't foreseen but it leaves you thin or even defenseless in other places, which is Zavala's point. Zavala's approach seems like that of someone who has seen countless "soldiers" die but is too conservative in my opinion. You do not let someone take out a highly visible member of your leadership with no response at all. I'm not sure it's cowardice but weakness and complacence maybe...at least the perception of it. This is also dangerous as it sets a precedent that invites others to take such bold action with out fear of consequence. Sending one Guardian on a revenge quest, or letting them go as the case may be, isn't really appropriate either. It really should have been an organized response, god slayer or no. Gather up a dozen or two Guardians and send them under your banner so it isn't just some lone wolf acting on their own. This doesn't quite fit into game mechanics, but as it is, the retaliation was just one unsponsored guardian, which is still a non-response from the Vanguard.

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  • Ikora has it right. Not that every Guardian should’ve went out to avenge Cayde, but at least her, Zavala and us. You avenge your fallen teammate and brother, not hide behind your City walls like a coward.

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    • Not going to lie I kinda spaced out a bit reading the post. However I just want to say I agree with the statement ikora said, "if we don't fight for our friends what are we fighting for." the fact that zavala just brushed off cyades death as something that "just happens" kinda pissed me off. Now, a full scale assault on the reef wouldn't have been the way to go but at least a fireteam should go. My damn guardian has to do everything by himself. I'm convinced my guardian is the most powerful and most reliable guardian out there.

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    • we should have gone to war. gunz blazing taking the shore with force. damn zavala let me do that shit alone. again.......

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    • I feel like the problem goes back to a guardian never permanently dying and fighting a war with no end.

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    • I don’t think either was right but I don’t think either was wrong at the same time. At first I was on Ikora’s side but as the story went on and I thought about it I could see what Zavala ment but at the same time I knew had we just left Uldren alone he probably would have turned his sights toward the city eventually and the scorn would have had all that time to build their forces. As for when you stop processing it? In my experience never. It’s been six years since my grandmother died and just a few days ago I thought about her and cried....just when I thought I had been done with my crying. You never truly get over the loss of someone you love but you can carry their memory with you.

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      • Wow oh my😊. Great job on your assignments everyone I am very impressed! I hope you're all ready for Friday's test which will need to be a 30 page essay, but I'm sure you all will do just fine😊.

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      • This is...a lot of reading

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      • Fûcking A+ on the essay my dude

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        • Edited by Pir: 9/30/2018 4:46:40 PM
          3
          [b][i]Is this loss?[/i][/b]

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        • To keep it simple There was no 100% right answer here Zavala however had the moral rightness here. Ikora was blinded by rage and was willing to sacrifice thousands of lives all in the name of revenge and would have led to the extinction of every last human in the city. She was stupid. But the only thing she had right was that SOME action did need to be taken against uldren. Zavala was right to put humanity and keeping the citizens as a First and foremost priority over pure vengeance. But not supporting at least a small strike team was the wrong play. Doing nothing was also wrong (not as bad as Ikora's full invasion stupid suicide war) but still wrong. Honestly the best decision that could have been made was the option of OUR guardian taking out Uldren and the Scorned fallen. They were commiting genocide against the fallen and Awoken and they needed to die. But even that still had consequences and Riven and Savathun will be part of the consequences of our actions. We did the right thing, but even the right thing has it's costs.

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          • Edited by XenoWraith: 9/28/2018 10:27:31 PM
            Ikora is right in every way imaginable. She learned that the City could be lost. She learned everything that needed to be learned from the Red War. Hell I betcha, if she could, go and hunt Uldren down like the rabid dog he is. Now I very much doubt that everyone would go and hunt him down but we have to remember that Cayde’s death put the farm at a standstill when those people learned about his death. I can even imagine some of those militia, if they could, would [b][u]volunteer[/u][/b] on the spot if asked to start the man hunt. Zavala hid behind an illusion that has been completely broken and what is this talk that we’re not an “army?” We have a commander. We have guns and we most certainly have no shortage of volunteers. By anyone’s definition the Vanguard is an army and Cayde was also part of the entire command structure. The right thing to do was to send a couple of fire teams right on over to the Reef but he didn’t. He became a coward. I can only imagine what would happen if word got to every Guardian that respected or even loved Cayde. I very much doubt there wouldn’t be a shortage of volunteers that would mercilessly hunt down Uldren.

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            • Edited by PhNx Hellfire: 9/29/2018 7:11:57 AM
              What was done was the appropriate actions. Zavala, regardless of how younger guardians feel, made the correct call to focus on the escapees and the City. The wastelands of the tangled shore held nothing for us. Ulran was looking to the dreaming city. Had we known about his curiosity with the Shard too? One way trip for him. Fact is. We released Riven and as per the Queen's prediction? We are now watching the slow extinction of the awoken from their homeworld. The morality of Cayde was the lure to get us away from the Traveler which gave Uldran his shot while we dealt with the Barons. As for Ikora? I agreed with her approach as well. Had every single guardian gun been point at the Tangled Shore landscape? We wouldn't have even needed to reload and watched the enemy defenses crumble. One swift barrage and we would have shown Uldran just what happens when you push those buttons. Zavala and Ikora are fine. Cayde honestly was never someone I really liked. Funny enough. Liked his overall fighting capabilities too. But he wasn't really a leader. More like a jester.

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              • Zavala's recent losses: - 75 ships carrying civilians and guardians lost while fleeing earth during Ghaul's invasion - the Sunbreaker titan order completely wiped out on Mercury before Zavala could mend their relationship - the Prime Guard titan order completely wiped out trying to defend the Last City from Ghaul's forces - the deaths of several squads of Lightless guardians that followed him to Titan. He didn't know the Hive had already established themselves there. - And now Cayde, the heart of the trio, lies dead before him. Draped in Vanguard colors. I genuinely feel awful for Zavala. It's very lonely at the top.

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                • I got that the DLC was about the revenge - but imo Uldren wasn't worth it because he was driven mad by Riven. Riven was a bigger threat than Uldren.

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                  • I feel like what Bungo is trying to do is similar to what the MCU did. Like, how would you weaken humanity to have it be easily matched to a greater foe? You split the power. Think. We've earned allies like Rasputin, Osiris and the Awoken, possibly the help of the Drifter or the House Of Scar- but we've also lost a third of our Vanguard, made a rift between the remaining two- and the Speaker is long-dead too, with not many suitable candidates. We have much to our side, but we have taken blows. How much these events will cost lives in near future... remains to be seen. I guess. [spoiler]TRIANGLES!!! Oooooooooooo~, [i]spooooooky~...[/i]][/spoiler]

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                  • Both were wrong and right. However, Uldren and the Barons rose to power seemingly overnight. Someone needed to investigate. Those engram bombs would've made it to the city if we hadn't intervened, etc.

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                  • Edited by JayMadIV: 9/29/2018 8:33:33 PM
                    Both are right in different ways. Zavala is right that sending "every Titan, Every Warlock, Every Hunter" to storm the Reef to avenge the Meme Vanguard was a shortsighted move that leaves the City extremely vulnerable to another Ghaul, especially with so many Guardians already tasked with rounding up the Prison of Elders escapees. However, Ikora is right that Meme-6's death should not go unavenged, and Uldren needed a bullet in his head, along with all of his Barons. The right move was always to send us, their most Elite Agent(s), to find Uldren and kill him. This was the middle ground between their viewpoints, and also the way forward that carried the least amount of risk and the highest chance of getting the job done. where BOTH Zavala and Ikora were wrong, was that neither of them managed find this middle ground on their own, and we had to take the initiative ourselves. Zavala was extra wrong for not supporting the decision after the fact.

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                  • Okay, I know this isn't entirely on topic, but about Zavala... is everyone going to just ignore the fact that he's kind of an idiot and a hypocrite? As OP mentioned, the Abide the Return lore tab mentions that Zavala says that we stand by the Reef and our Awoken allies... This alliance DIDN'T apply like a few days earlier when the Reef had an insane madman with an army of undead aliens committing genocide on the Awoken? Like... Petra mentioned specifically that Uldren and the Barons were slaughtering the Awoken, if I remember correctly. It isn't until AFTER Uldren is taken down and Mara is revealed to be alive that we are allies? I don't know what to think about Zavala, but it ain't good, whatever it is. (Me personally, I didn't see the Forsaken story as Vengeance/Justice for Cayde's death like Bungie wanted us to see it. Justice, maybe, but not for Cayde. To save the Awoken and prevent an even greater threat from being allowed entry to Sol, yeah, but not anything about Cayde. Sorry chicken man.)

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                  • Zavala was a fool and the only thing he got right was not to send an army into the Reef. That was a knee-jerk reaction by Ikora to losing their friend. But Zavala's whole 'we can do nothing' was just filled with buckets of stupid; First; you don't think no-one else is going to notice that the Vanguard does nothing when one of their leaders is murdered and nothing is done? It makes Earth look weak to every other hostile group who now will consider taking action. Two, how does ignoring Uldren and an army of Fallen behind him make any sense? 'Sure, he's killed Cayde, he has freed all these dangerous (and weird) Fallen, but let's ignore them, they'll just go away.' Because that's worked out well in the past. Third, you have some of the most dangerous people around, fireteams who've faced SIVA, Hive Witches/Knights, Fallen Kells, etc, and you cant send out 1 or 2 fire teams to hunt Uldren down, really? 3-6 is hardly an invasion, it gets Uldren and his forces dead or scattered and sends a very nice message..."Fuc* with us and you get dead."

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                  • Both are incapable of being Vanguard leaders, [b]we [/b] fired the bullet, [b]we [/b] killed the scorn barons, [b]we [/b] saved the Reef, and the cosmos, from Riven. Not them.

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                  • Zavala was blind to think that an army of Darkness fueled Fallen led by the guy who just killed a Vanguard wasn't a threat to the city.

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                  • Zalva was pissed as hell. He just didn't let it cost them an army.

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                  • Everyone is arguing that Ikora or Zavala is right or wrong, when in reality, everyone experiences grief differently. Even a powerful, brilliant Warlock or strong, stable Titan will feel the effects of Cayde’s death. Their thoughts were clouded, and what they said in that cutscene probably isn’t entirely what they meant. Sure, Zavala was thinking more clearly than Ikora, but I think their actions in the future will be better clues as to who’s right and wrong than what they’re doing now.

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                  • Zavala was right for the right reasons, Ikora was right for the wrong reasons.

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                  • I would say that Ikora was closer to being "right" than Zavala. Uldren was a criminal to begin with then he broke out of prison, killed a high ranking official and was obviously up to something. The Awoken (our allies) were in trouble and I'd say that We our probably one of the few Guardians that they actually trust. Zavala seemed to think that he couldn't spare a single Guardian to at least go and get some reconnaissance done. Which, to me, shows his lack of faith in the entire nation of people he's in charge of. Makes me question his decisions as a leader. I don't think he's a coward, I think he's stupidly cautious. Defense is fine and all, but when a new, possible, threat shows up, you need to find out what's going on. The information available was that some new sect of Fallen were capable enough to kill one of the most skilled members of the Vanguard. [spoiler]In a one-sided beatdown no less.[/spoiler] That's worth some checking out in my book. I know that the focus was on revenge , [spoiler]I don't like that they decided this for us btw, that's what you get when they start making your Guardian talk. Ghost can have whatever personality they want. The Guardian is [i]mine[/i]. [/spoiler] But my Guardian, my mindset, is that we're hunting down a threat who killed one of our own. Ikora, wanted us to go get revenge for her friend in her place; this feels more logical to me. Through her grief, she understands that her position doesn't allow her to run off. She also understands that [i]we[/i] are not tied down in the same way. [i]We [/i]can go bring closure for her in whatever way we see fit. [b]tldr;[/b] [spoiler]Zavala wanted to focus on defending against what we know is a threat, hoping that the possible one keeps to itself. Ikora just wanted revenge and closure. [i]justice,[/i] on a man who organized a brutal killing of a friend and fellow Guardian. They're both wrong, but while acting against a possible threat may guarantee it to become one, it's still better to [i]know [/i]than have it show up unexpectedly one day while you still have no idea how to defend against it. Going after Uldren is the same as if we'd had the opportunity to confront Ghaul before he attacked the city and sealed the traveler.[/spoiler] [b]IMO[/b]

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