How did we go from fighting monsters in raids, to competing in Olympic events? If I wanted to play track and field games, I would buy a Wii.

I loved how a team could get carried by 3-4 super experienced and great PvE players. Made the fireteam feel more realistic rather then everyone having to carry their own weight. Weak links ruin the experience. VoG has the best loot and mechanics to date

Vog will always be the best in so many ways. I didn't even like WoTM much because it was hard to find a good team. But the loot and atmosphere was dope so I did it. D2 raid are trash. When Leviathan dropped i already didnt like it much. Not even loot wise or atmosphere wise. Never have done a lair and never will. Only doing Leviathan because its been out long enough for people to know the mechanics decently so its easy, and you can still progress your light doing it. Most of the activities in this game already seem pointless. After giving this new dlc a try im still disappointed.

We just shoot things in strikes. Mechanics are what makes raids fun and unique.

As a deaf player, I CONCUR. In the rating of 1-10 (easiest to hardest): VoG: 2 (love this raid) Crota: 3 King's Fall: 6 (Oryx one was bit tedious but can be done) WotM: 5 Leviathan: 8 (because of stupid Gauntlet that stopped me from doing this raid) Eater of Worlds: 7 (looks like easy until Argos) Spire of Stars: NOPE, I'M OUT. 'FRIENDSHIPS' MY BUTT. This is just entirely my opinion. Hasn't actually tried the last 2 raids. Attempted Leviathan and WotM, but never finished 'em. Others, I've finished 'em numbers of times on Hard mode.

Idk, I like KF

I haven't played Leviathan or the raid lairs, but wouldn't it be to easy if we got a raid like VoG? The only reason VoG took so long to complete back in D1 was because it was so different from the normal missions and strikes. Now we are used to playing missions/strikes/raids that are a lot harder and require a lot more both individually but also as a team. Remember back when Jade Rabbit was released and everyone complete VoG in 30-60 minutes? That's what I fear will happen if we get a new raid like it. But as I said I haven't played the raid content in D2, so I'm no expert in that field.

Leaked footage of September's raid. https://youtu.be/TrDUdOgpNsI

I just think the token system is stupid. The raid's mechanics should be the reason the team wipes, not necessarily because a guy made a single mistake. Mistakes are what make raids tense, but fun. VoG, Crota, even Kings Fall and WotM. At some point mistakes were made and you had to judge 'is it worth it to keep going'. Often the answer was "We can do it, just no one else f*ck up please. No room for error." That's tense. Honestly, these raids are just boring. There's no 'maybe we got this' moments anymore. To me, those were the best parts of raiding. 5 man Oryx kills with a man down, having two men down in Crota and still killing him, Oracles coming down to the last three guys (can apply to conflux's and Templar as well), Golgoroth with 1-2 guys down, Warpriest with 1-2 guys down, Sisters with a man down, Atheon with 1-2 guys down, the Crota Abyss (seriously, this part would blow with the token system) losing as many guys as you want, And some more of course. [u]These moments[/u] were what made raiding that much more fun IMO. Being able to beat the odds even down a couple of guys. It was tough, but also flexible. The raids punished mistakes, but in ways the player could still fight back.

The big problem is at these mechanics are being recycled. Who wants to have a boss that is dependent on a crap ton of ads and running balls around all day. These Lair bosses seem to leave these relics laying around like a kid with Legos they won't pick up their toys. Some new Concepts or a Devil May Cry style boss that has mechanics but isn't some tedious process dependent on the same things we've already done before. I'm fine with mechanics but let's get a boss that doesn't sit in the middle of the room like some lump with a gun attached to its butt. The creativity just does not seem to be there. For once I would actually like to be scared or intimidated by a boss rather than just overwhelmed with ads. I don't mind the ReUse of content but please stop putting old Concepts in DLC and calling it brand new because it's not.

IMO raids were meant to have an incentive, to be fun, rewarding and giving the player base a challenge that a group of 6 could work together as a group to accomplish a task that would be worth completing. Yes gamers asked for better mechanics and they got that. Nothing wrong in wanting a challenge, but they also asked for many other things that made a raid like VoG worth the time spent running it as many times as some have. Can anyone really say they are really willing to run the new raid 300+ times knowing you will not get anything out of it other then the exact same duplicates over and over and over again that do Nothing for this game? I didn't feel it was a waste of time running VoG like the new raid in D2 and the so-call add on's that did absolutely Nothing for this game at all. This was Bungie crating something to fill in a empty space to say they added "more content" to the game. When D1 was being created it was being created for our characters to become Guardians. I don't know what you can actual call D2 because this is Not Destiny at all and the concept of this game changed drastically to the opposite of what you can call a Guardian. VoG gave me a reason to want to run the raid multiple time. Reason being... [spoiler]VoG had some of the most sought out weapons in the game that D2 doesn't even come anywhere near that incentive. VoG had gear that had random stats that would (improve) your Guardian's abilities when duplicates dropped. VoG wasn't over done with mechanics because it was created to be (fun) VoG had a sense of exploration VoG improved in year 3 giving better rewards, adding the challenged mods at the Templar and the Oracles at Atheon. VoG was created with the entire player base in mind. Not the pathetic Streamer, YouToubers, Content Creators or whatever you want to call them that this "sequel" is being created for. It was created for the player base to enjoy their time running an event that was well worth the gamers time spent in the game.[/spoiler] Before Anyone says things like... "Gamers cheesed it" What I have to say to that? [b](Bungie was Fully Capable)[/b] on knowing how to fix that so-call "issue" in Y1 of D1 and could have fixed it any time they wanted to and that is a Fact. You know why they didn't fix it in Y1 and Y2? [spoiler]Because gamers were running an event as it was intended for. [b](Fun)[/b][/spoiler] "It was too easy" Yeah, in Y3 it was and that is when everything became one big hand out. Not when you ran it at a low level in Y1 that it actually gave you a challenged that was worth the time running it. "it had a lot of bugs etc..." As if any of their raids never had any... "You haven't ran the raid" Cozmo's own words [quote][b]Everyone who plays our game has the right to give their opinions. We just ask you do so in a respectful manner and don't attack or insult anyone in the process.)[/b] You don't have to be a developer to give feedback on whether something is fun or exciting to play.[/quote] No one needs to run any event to see how 90% of D2 is reskinned useless cosmetics that do absolutely Nothing for this game at all. Can't say that about D1. Yeah, it had it's issues but D1 was never this far gone. The thing about all this? Gamers keep saying 3+ years later... "Bungie is trying to improve the game" This is not an insult to anyone so don't even attempt to say otherwise. Bungie is fully capable of adding the things that should have been added to this game the day it was released. There is No Bungie is "trying" [b](They already know how to but refuse to and that is a fact because of their own selfish reasons.)[/b]

The Vault of glass I played had plenty of mechanics, not sure which one you played.

I genuinely think Bungie added all these ridiculous, over-complicated mechanics in later raids because they were irritated with people soloing/cheesing the raids in D1. They designed those raids for 6 people but people figured out how to circumvent the "intended" methodology and complete the raids with a different approach. Soloing Crota is still one of the best and most fun and challenging encounters many people ever had in all of Destiny. But Bungie can't allow this. They want the game to be played their way. They can't have us mere mortal plebs making up our own rules. That's just too much fun, and we can't have fun. We must play the game the way they intended damnit! Hence adding all of these over-elaborate nonsense mechanics in later raids such as standing on platforms or sneaking around a garden holding pollen or throwing an orb around like it's pass the parcel. All of this is to ensure we play the game the way the raid designers want. We're not allowed our own ingenuity or inventiveness. We must play as instructed! No creativity, no imagination, no innovation allowed.

VOG was the introduction for the toddler guardians. The game needs to progress and give people a stronger sense of teamwork/ skill. If you do want a VOG speedrun in D2, escalation is the closest to VOG mechanics youll ever get. Kill X number of adds, defend this circle, shoot crystals, then dps the boss.