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1/25/2018 11:03:56 PM
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Cool. Yet another system that relies on impossibly rare materials to perform tasks with completely random results. Fun.
Can't wait to build my set of armor by doing a bunch of something and then maybe the thing I want happens, possibly. But probably not, because it never -blam!-ing does.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go roll a dice to see if I'm allowed to eat dinner or not.
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Those materials are only rare if you don’t play....
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[quote]Those materials are only rare if you don’t play....[/quote] Again. Not the point. They aren't achievable on purpose. You just get them eventually for doing literally anything or you don't ever get them because RNG. Boring, boring, boring. There's an entire game's worth of content all this stuff could be actually tied to, instead of just being randomly given to us for being logged in long enough taking down the same goddamn mining crew over and over and over and over...
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Or u could of just saved Master work cores untill the 30th I have about 70 Soo yep
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Edited by wonkothesane: 1/26/2018 5:42:43 AMNot really the point. The unimaginative and tired game mechanic of "just do anything and wait for the dice to roll in your favor" is the point. Let me work for it! Let me earn it! Don't just give me a system that boils down to little more than login and wait for the server to roll dice. Here's an example of how RNG could work with the Mastercore system (I'll even do it in such a way that doesn't require any new assets or content): - Mastercores are mined by the Cabal. You must defeat high-level Cabal leaders to steal their Mastercores. When these high-level Cabal are defeated, there is a reasonable (say 1 in 10) chance that they will drop a Core. That core can then be applied to a weapon to grant Orbs. There is also a 1 in 20 chance that the core might have a modifier, like +1 range or whatever. OR alternatively, you can apply 5 Cores to a weapon and choose the stat you want. This could even be expanded to allow rarer Cores that drop randomly with higher modifiers, exotic cores that add perks whatever. Or it could even be enemy specific. Maybe the Fallen drop movement specific Cores and the Cabal drop Resistance Cores. Lots of room to go here that still involves a random aspect, but gives the player more authority over the outcome. The difference here is player action matters. If I want Cores, I know I can go find some Cabal bosses and get to work. It's still random, in that not every one will drop a Core, but it's a path I know that will eventually lead to my goal without being so vague as to be literally anything in the entire game with unknowable odds. And, once I get that random drop, I can CHOOSE how to apply it. I can build the weapon how I want, It's a thing I can choose to use now or later. It's a thing I can choose to apply to a different gun that maybe I wasn't considering. It's still a random drop with possibly random stats and modifiers, but suddenly it becomes my choice how and when to use it. It's not just random trash being turned into random numbers being thrown back in the trash. Action leading to predictable result with a reward that remains useful even if it's not necessarily the thing that was desired. All with comparatively minimal coding changes. And that's just off the cuff from someone who's never designed a game in their life. It's really not that hard to imagine BETTER systems that still respect the RNG nature of a loot-based game. Most other game developers have done it. [Caveat: I don't think that farming mobs is a particularly great system either, it's almost as unimaginative as "do random things and random things happen!" But it is a system that gives the players agency, and that's MILES ahead of anything in D2 right now.]
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Why are you playing a Destiny game? This game is basically a slot machine. I love the game, but that's what it is. That's what it has always been.
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Because I hadn't played a Destiny game before and it looked fun? And it largely is, except for some poorly executed bits that could easily be made better without sacrificing the RNG elements. Like, for instance, tying end game engrams to actual end game activities that you can do whenever you want, instead of artificially limiting it to a handful a week for the sole purpose of making you login more often than you might otherwise? Like, for instance, narrowing loot pools to specific subsets based on difficulty and type of content, so that we can actually try to get a specific thing instead of everything being a 1 in 8000 chance and it inevitably being garbage or dupes every time? Like, for instance, making the materials necessary to build your character the way you want available in a consistent way so that bad RNG doesn't make grinding for a single extra bullet take 2 months? RNG doesn't have to mean "just login and you'll get stuff." And it sure as hell doesn't have to mean "you only get five things that actually matter a week but you have no control over those five things so they'll just be the same thing every time because -blam!- you." It can still mean actually having to, you know, play a game and get better at it to earn better things. It's great that you and others love it, it really is, but there are ways to make it better for others without sacrificing what you love about it. I know its super "casual" of me to suggest a game as big as Destiny be more engaging than just picking random digital trinkets out of a hat for doing little more than logging in, but that's where I stand.
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I understand where you're coming from.
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They did that in D1 - people bitched because they didn't think it was fair to have to run the raid for "x" gear, or have to PVP trials for "x" gear... People wanted to play what they liked and get the same gear as others playing what they like etc. Everyone equal, everything "fair" - participation trophy clan engrams, etc... I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm letting you know why D2 does not work that way now - for better or worse depending on individual opinion(s). ~ Cheers
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Fair enough. Perhaps they just took it a bit too far? I wasn't around for D1, so I don't have that context. But, I can envision a system that doesn't shoehorn a player into specific play styles while still providing a closer connection between gameplay and reward. Just a few off the top of my head: - Loot is still in smaller pools, but all of it can be found in both PVP and PVE. For PVP this could just mean turning in tokens to different vendors. For PVE this could be planetary or Public Event specific or open world bosses or any number of things. The point is just that all the loot would be attainable through various ways, just a little more narrowly defined so you could actually work for it rather than forever waiting for that perfect 1 in 8000 dice roll. - Give weapons/armor slots for appearance, perks, attributes, etc. Combined with something like the above, anyone could still build out exactly what they want, but it wouldn't necessarily be tied to a PVP loot pool or difficulty level. Higher end content could drop higher end perks/attributes, but appearance slot things could still be attainable by all. - Make things more in-game currency driven, where you can buy literally everything with tokens and high-end stuff costs a fortune, but high-end content rewards a comparative fortune. A player that just wants to kill random mobs in the wild can still earn the high-end content eventually, it just takes a lot longer. But it makes it take longer in such a way that it doesn't negate the actions of the player who actually beat the hard content. It gives them a way to get the thing they want FASTER. Everyone can still get everything, but player action actually has an impact. - You could still keep the RNG elements there too, maybe instead of buying things with preset stats/level, it's a random roll with the odds being determined by how many tokens you spend. i.e. A weapon for 1 token might have a 1 in 100 chance of Best Stat, but the same weapon for 25 tokens would have a 1 in 2 chance. Most importantly though, make ALL those stats upgradeable so the bad roll weapon isn't just instant garbage! Add "upgrade trinket" to the loot pool and make higher-end content more likely to drop it and more likely to drop higher value upgrades. Again, the content-adverse player could still just farm these things by killing mobs from the church tower in EDZ. It's just going to take a lot longer. Risk vs reward. No one is gated, no one is blocked out, everything is attainable by everyone, yet it would maintain a sense of being appropriately rewarded for level of challenge. [Caveat being that Bright Dust would need to stay FAR FAR FAR away from any system that relied more on currency.] Though I fundamentally disagree with the idea of an end-game multi-hour difficult Raid providing the exact same rewards as standing in a field doing nothing while a Public Event happens around you, there are clearly ways to create a system that allows exactly that outcome while still being fair and providing a sense of achievement and purpose.
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Edited by wonkothesane: 1/26/2018 5:49:05 PMOh! Much like the game, I totally neglected XP too. All of the "currency" stuff I mentioned above could also be tied to XP. Maybe each level you get upgrade points for your weapons. Or a random perk mod that can be applied to a weapon/armor. Or maybe you can choose to unlock certain high-end weapons with enough levels. Or maybe every level opens a planet quest that rewards form a small pool of "good stuff" at your light level, creating an additional progression path outside the weekly gated crap. Or... something along those lines? All of this has the same effect of rewarding the player doing the hard stuff quicker, while still allowing anyone to eventually get all the stuff.
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You know Drama!
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Edited by Eternus: 1/25/2018 11:23:03 PMOverreacting much? RNG is an integral part of this game and many other games. They’ve introduced checks and balances to ensure it remains fair to the player and that a form of reward progression is introduced. Would you rather just play the game for 3 hours and be done? If so you really shouldn’t be playing a game such as this or any game like it. Because that’s what you’re implying.
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[See my post below]
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Its destiny. RNG is a core mechanic. You are playing the wrong game.
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Edited by wonkothesane: 1/25/2018 11:38:00 PMLook at it this way, would you think it was just "RNG" if the game picked a class for you based on a dice roll? What if it picked your class traits for you randomly? Or what weapon you were allowed to use? What if when you logged in it just said "nope, you can't play today." and launched Minecraft instead? At what point for you does RNG stop being "core mechanic" and start being annoying? Clearly we have different lines of where the randomness stops being compelling, but we no doubt both have a line. Having core customization systems tied to RNG is that line for me. Having core progression systems tied to RNG is that line for me. Having core options of even what to do at a particular moment tied to RNG is that line for me. There is ZERO player choice anywhere in this game. It's do the random thing in the queue we decided for you and get some random crap when you're done and that's about it. [Nevermind that the RNG is so clearly manipulated to work AGAINST you. See XP gain. See Token throttle. Etc. It's not about the randomness in and of itself.]
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Fair statement, but then at what point do you just say, "this game isnt for me" as opposed to just allowing those whos line are in a different place to enjoy it? I wont go into minecraft then complain I have no endgrams to decrypt
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Pretty sure most of the fanbase is doing that currently. At some point telling dissatisfied players to go play something else will hurt the Destiny franchise and what’s left of the playerbase moving forward.
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[quote]Fair statement, but then at what point do you just say, "this game isnt for me" as opposed to just allowing those whos line are in a different place to enjoy it? I wont go into minecraft then complain I have no endgrams to decrypt[/quote] I missed this one in the heat of things, but this is a fair point. I wouldn't still be here if I didn't think there was a lot of potential in D2. There is enough "this game IS for me" currently to keep me sticking around to see what happens. [And the same could be said from your side, if it changes too much maybe at some point it will stop being "the game for you."] It's a balance that Bungie has to find and I don't envy them. I sure as hell wouldn't want to have to find consensus among this community. At some point D2 will prove to me it can be better than what I see as its major flaws or it won't. At which point, I'll either be ecstatic or I'll move on to something else. In the mean time, this forum is for feedback so that's what I'll use it for!
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Well it sounds like we're both waiting for the game we want it to be lol. ...I think most of us are
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RNG should be a core mechanic, not the ONLY mechanic. Having every single thing be RNG means nothing I do matters in the slightest. There is absolutely no engagement if nothing you do can effect the outcome. D2 is little more than a slot machine and it could be so much better than that. The random aspect is supposed to tantalize, to make the outcome slightly different, to make things worth doing over to maybe get a slightly better result. It's not supposed to just make everything in the game the exact same dice roll with no thought or even much effort required of the player.
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Edited by Eternus: 1/25/2018 11:38:00 PMI agree we need more ways to acquire more gear but criticising RNG isn’t the answer. D1 had some direct paths to (good) gear and some RNG mixed together for their last expansion. But they have given us that too in D2. Direct gear purchasing from vendors? Fated engrams? (Forgetting the bugs), it’s all a work in progress. Should have been there to begin with but what can we do now.
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Edited by wonkothesane: 1/25/2018 11:47:15 PMYou misunderstand me. I'm not against the principle of RNG. A bit of randomness is great! D2's problem is that literally EVERYTHING is random. And most of it is random [i]crap[/i]. I'm not asking for everything to be static, I'm asking for player choice and effort to MATTER. To have [i]some[/i] control. If the Masterworks thing was just one system of many varied systems, cool, no problem. But as the SOLE system for upgrading, it's just more "Well, this is my character because that's what Bungie decided it is." Even if it was the exact same system, but I could actively earn Cores. Alright, cool, I can at least work to overcome the RNG. But nope. The Cores too are entirely random. So I'm just stuck a certain way until random works in my favor. And then I have to hope the next Random thing works in my favor. And then with enough Random things happening, maybe a character or build or weapon or whatever that I actually like will come out of it. It's TOO much random. Give me just one bit of control or choice. Yeesh, we aren't even allowed to choose what GAMETYPE we want to play in PVP! Imagine if Steam was just a single button that said "Play a game!" and you had to play whatever game randomly popped up! (Or continually back out until the one you wanted happened to come up)
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I see your point, I can honestly say I haven’t had an overly large amount of trouble getting things in the game. Masterwork core accumulation I believe is an issue Bungie brought up already? I might be mistaken. But I’ve managed to Masterwork my Better Devils, Uriel’s Gift and a couple others. I think the larger issue is that the game in general just feels underwhelming. Whereas D1 was so, it managed to mask it in a clever way. The friend factor in the game is a critical point in enjoyment and for the player base to drop so much it sort of brings bare the pitfalls in the game. Nonetheless I’m still excited and hopeful to see where and how Bungie takes things. It’s a complex issue.
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Edited by wonkothesane: 1/26/2018 5:09:40 AMTo me, the over-reliance on randomness and the total disconnect between action and consequence/reward is what makes the game feel so underwhelming. Literally nothing you do results in an outcome you can predict. So you just do... anything. And then you get a prize! But, no, its not really a prize, it's just a purple ball. And then an hour later you have to sit through a loading screen or two and then run and find a guy who can tell you what your purple ball actually is. And then it's garbage. And then you don't even have any idea where you got the garbage from or why. So you delete it. Rinse. Repeat. And then 4 hours later you get a kinda cool thing from a purple ball that you got... somewhere... earlier.. for.. what? Standing near a guy who killed the same Space Miner that you've killed like 8 million times now? Satisfaction! But, oh, no, you already have 18 of that cool thing and it's Wednesday so you've already used up your handful of allocated "Really Cool Things" for the week. So you delete it. Rinse. Repeat. Then you figure, well, my weapon could use a Masterwork. So you rush to orbit and load into... uh... anywhere. Then you do something. And then fourteen Space Miners later you get a weapon with a Masterwork! Glorious! You don't know why that particular Space Miner was more of an accomplishment, it hardly feels like a reward for doing something so mundane that it can literally be done AFK, but sure! It's glorious! But then you realize the only way to remove the Core is to... trash it. So you delete it. Rinse. Repeat. Destiny isn't so much a loot collecting game as it is a loot destroying game. We are the Guardians of the Galaxy's Garbage. The proud. The ever-increasingly few.
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What impossibly rare materials? I'm tripping over MW and I've never done the raid or trials. (Devrim is pretty generous to be honest)
