[quote]F/E in D1 trials. If it was a 1 v 3. Me against 3 say 1.0 kd kids. I would have a good chance of winning.In D2 trials. If it was a 1 v 3 against average players I would loose every time (without heavy/super). [/quote] This. Its not so much that there has been a compression of the skill curve. Its that the game has been redesigned from that ground up to both PROMOTE and PROTECT the team-shooting meta. You had a chance in that 1v3 in Destiny 1, because greater build variety allowed you the possibility of getting your super before your opponents. In addition to your super, the game gave you regular access to weapons that killed quickly and therefore had the power to PUNISH teams that bunched up and pushed forward in a careless manner....and to BREAK UP that team shooting. Thus allowing for more 1v1 duels, and for differences in individual skill to shine through. Case in point, I was playing IB last night, and caught a team rounding that corner by Rugs. Three of them were practically shoulder-to-shoulder...and pushing up three abreast. I fired off my Nova Bomb for an almost painfully easy triple kill. But I only had my super (and they didn't) because the team I was on was already absolutely annihilating them. In a closer match, If I had my super AT LEAST one other player on their team would have had their super as well. So my attempt at a big play would have likely been neutralized by an opponent using their super at the same time to counter it. The changes to the weapon system have created a situation where they only way to effectively deal with a team that is camping in a corner of the map, and team shooting all the avenues of approach....is to mob up, and push as a team. Anything else, and you just get your face shot off. So the result is you get this bland, predictable play that is appealing to people who want the game to be e-sport competitive.....but isn't very fun to play for everyone else.

Very well-stated summary of the problem facing D2. It's not as bad at my level, because my slow reaction time and poor fine motor skills ensure that I'll never be good in PvP. The players I get paired with don't teamshoot as well as the elite ones. But since teamshooters' chief adversary (specials) has been neutered, they are the dominant force. Bungie has even encouraged this by counting assists as kills. My suggested fix? Allow anyone near a heavy kiosk to get a 50% load of heavy when an ally activates it. This will put more teamshooter-killing weapons in play, with the expected results.

The game needs a paradigm shift that embraces the "space magic" as part of play, rather than trying to neuter it...and to accept that this will be a fast-moving game. Jon Weisznewski has spent 4 years fighting the design of this game trying to turn it into a marriage of Halo and Rainbow Six.

In the process he made it so you're better off playing either halo or rainbow six

@Kids On average everyone actually loses like 10% of his reaction by the time you reach 20. So "kids" are the better shooterplayers.

Peak, raw nervous system speed is generally reached during your middle teen years. (I once swatted a fly out of the air with a pencil when I was 16.) Hence the stereotype of the typical shooter gamer being someone's angry 15 year old.

I am with you here. In my opinion HOW was best. Each meta has its issues. However everyone had access to powerful weapons. The ideal was to be powerful and aggressive. The whole point of abilities is to make you play like superman. Its not about defense but offense. Unfortunately, passive and camping players had difficulty handling it, hard to defend thus its op. Some say faster ttk is no good. I am a vet. First thing you learn is getting the first shot in. If enemy geats the beat on you your chances are slim and dead. Be aggressive and get the first shot in . Now we are clark kent. Shy, non aggressive, need help to kill someone, scared to walk and play on our own, and passive. How can someone think thats great, just don't get it. A battle is chaos, believe me I know. Players need to move and move quickly around the map.Look for opportunities to finish off players, catch them off balance, make plays using distraction with your granades. Put them on the defense. Not with this meta though. Fun in video games is the ultimate test of whether a game is good or not. Here fun is capped. Its just the same each match. After a while you get bored. For some thats 30 minutes.Anyway, my opinion, does not make me right or wrong, just my perspective which we all individually have.

And I personally believe with the fast movement speed of D1 the maps needed to be a bit bigger with 6v6. Some of the maps were too small in D1, that it “felt” a half second after spawn someone else would spawn behind you. With 6v6 the maps have to reflect movement speed in scientific correlation to the surface space you cover in a certain amount of time to be optimized for the gameplay experience in Destiny’s pvp. That’s just my opinion as well. I feel like Bungie needs a little more talented testers/ devs in regards to pvp. Having developers make the game then hand it off to people for testing isn’t a good system at figuring out how best to create a game like Destiny. Especially a game that has both first person shooting AND space magic. I feel they were way too ambitious and inexperienced in this type of genre that they are now in over their heads with D2.

Jack, come back to my clan please.

I would actually go so far as to say the Destiny Alpha was the best time in PvP (for me personally). Before any of the crappy nerfs hit (they nerfed grenades and pulse rifles quite badly right at launch) and there was no lag. In fact, the only thing I didn't enjoy was how ridiculously OP the Interceptor was on the moon map. Otherwise it was great. In fact the only weapon type that wasn't really viable was Scout Rifles, which did irk me greatly however AR's were awesome, PRs were awesome ( I swear they could drop people faster if you were good, I SLAUGHTERED EVERYONE in 2-3 bursts) Shotgun rushing was viable and a major threat, people with good aim would blow your head off with a sniper and of course, Fusions were obscenely powerful (maybe the only weapon type that truly was way too strong since they had crazy 1-hit kill range, far more than shotguns but you had to charge them and aim well so it was semi-balanced). The game actually felt fun and unique. Then they just began cocking it all up gradually over the years, culminating in this boring, stagnant mess. I 100% agree, they gutted the skill ceiling and have almost completely taken away the ability for myself and my fellow top-tier players to make strong plays. You basically have to camp and/or roam with your team and just teamshot people down; yeah, that's really fun Bungie, turning a corner and being shot by 3-4 people and then dying before you can react over and over again. Thanks for putting in 1 of the major reasons I refuse to touch CoD anymore into Destiny. And on top of all that the overal pace of PvP is just dreadfully slow now. Movement feels so sluggish about the only change I really like in D2, is moving Sniper Rifles to the Power Weapon slot. Shotguns and Fusions I would argue do not belong there (maybe Linear Fusions) because there is more risk associated with using them. The problem with shotguns in D1 was never the range, and I've ranted about this countless times but Bungie still clearly doesn't know wtf they're doing. The real problem was always the prevalence of special ammo, and the drop off for shotgun damage. But instead of trying to adjust the damage formula like they did for other weapons (i.e. making drop off start sooner/more significant) they simply kept wholesale gutting their range, damage, and even removing that 1 perk (sorry I forget the name but it was the one where ADS would narrow the spread) which actually came with a significant penalty to hipfire/CQB accuaracy (less spread means you can't just quickly look at someone and spray them down, you gotta actually take a moment to aim which can be life or death at times). I just don't understand wtf is going on. They gut everything that was improved in the 1st game, turn PvE into some casual snoozefest with a garbage campaign littered with wasted opportunities and then warp PvP into this ridiculous sterile, hyper-competitive teamshooter that negates individual performance like Destiny 2 is suddenly going to be center stage at MLG. GET YOUR BLAM! TOGETHER BUNGIE!

Rangefinder was the perk I believe.