So, we've had a few weeks of Trials, a bit more of standard Crucible, and now the first Iron Banana is half-way peeled. We've seen the things that there are to see, shot what there is to shoot, and died how there is to die. It's time to discuss how weapons are currently functioning, and how that balances on the scales as a whole.
For the purposes of ranges, I will be using a scale of: CQC, close range, close-mid, true-mid, far-mid, close scout, long scout, and sniper. Please refer to this as needed. So first, let's define the weapons.
Auto Rifles: rapid-rife bang sticks; hold the trigger while keeping the site on the target to win. Comes in various rates of fire, with 450 rpm being the preference. notable examples are the Uriel's Gift, Prosecutor, Jiangshi, Origin Story, The Number.
TTK: moderate to good on the body, good to very good on the crit
Ease of use: good to very good
Range: CQC to far-mid, sometimes stretching the barrel to close scout
Pros: Easy to learn and use, great for team shots, functional across most ranges, lots of options to select from, very versatile
Cons: one archetype seems dominant over the others, loses to good sidearm or SMG players in CQC, loses to good scout users in far-mid to far-scout ranges
Scout rifle: long-range precision weapons, built for hitting crits and holding ground. The marksman's long gun of choice. Notable examples include Mida Multi-tool, Pleides Corrector, Frontier Justice, Skyburner's Oath.
TTK: poor to decent to the body, good to very good to the crit
Ease of Use: Moderate; the concept of hitting your crits is simple, pulling it off depends on a lot of factors.
Range: close-mid to far-scout, sometimes sniper. The rule of thumb: the faster it shoots, the closer it can be used effectively from time to time.
Pros: with healthy crit damage and a ton of range, you can sit out of other player's range and still land full damage shots, great for holding lanes, excellent in team shooting.
Cons: Huge differential between crit and body damage punishes sloppy shooting, high-impact versions are punished sharply for missing. Not great in all ranges, suffering in close. Requires more effort to match other guns effectiveness.
Hand cannons: If scouts were smaller, they's be hand cannons. Made as a high-damage, slow firing weapon, these weapons are good for front-liners and as a hold-out weapon. Prefered type is the 140 rpm category. Notable examples are the Better Devils, Old Fashioned, Judgement, Annual Skate, Minuet-42.
TTK: very slow to the body, slow to moderately decent to the crit
Ease of use: somewhat difficult. the recoil and fire rate aren't terribly welcoming, and the requirement to land all of your shots properly, use cover to dip in and out, carefully choose engagements, and account for bloom is a lot to juggle.
Range: hip-fired in CQC to true mid; a lot of guns have some flexibility, but I will say outright that using a hand cannon beyond true mid is currently assisted suicide
Pros: Efficient shots, allowing you to place maximum damage on a single bullet. Decent accuracy in the air, especially with the Moving Target perk.
Cons: slower than almost anything else to kill, demanding to use. Lacks for much range, but not amazing in CQC. Slow reloads. Bloom in effect, and hit registration is unreliable.
Pulse rifles: burst fire semi-auto weapons; essentially the bridge between scouts and autos. Combines decent range with decent damage output to make for a versatile weapon type. Notable examples are the Vigilance Wing, Nergal, Agenda, Nightshade, Lincoln Green, Final Perdition.
TTK: slow to the body, good to the crit.
Ease of use: moderate to decent. Learning the proper recoil control and burst timing can be a bit of a challenge for some.
Range: close to close-scout range.
Pros: versatile, allowing good performance in a variety of ranges. Decent damage output, decent range, decently simple to use, making this weapon type great for a primary carry gun.
Cons: operates in the same range as most ARs, and is typically going to either trade or lose to them. Crit registration on some types seems to vanish after a certain range. the possibility of missing part of a burst can invisibly alter your TTK.
Sidearms: small-caliber clip-fed weapons, meant to help you hold it together in close combat. Lower damage, faster firing versions of hand cannons. Notable examples include: Last Hope / Last Dance, Fool's Remedy, Drang.
TTK: in the proper range, good to the body, excellent to the crit.
Ease of use: these little guys take a bit of getting used to. The overall concept of 'shoot the dudes' is easy, but the mechanic of it in close combat are chaotic and more difficult than it would appear. Still decently accessible for everyone.
Range: varies depending on type, but generally CQC to far close range is the limit. Some can get a little traction in close-mid, but you're at a disadvantage.
Pros: Best in-air accuracy in the game, excellent for aggressive pushes and demanding defenses. Excellent rush counter guns.
Cons: Not all models are competitive, extremely sharp damage fall-off. Requires quick thinking and thumbs. Worthless outside of intended ranges.
SMGs: extremely rapid fire small-arms. What side arms are to hand cannons, SMGs are to ARs. Meant for close encounters of the Guardian kind, nothing shreds faster in CQC notable examples include the Antiope, Red Mamba, and Mida Mini-tool.
TTK: in the proper range, fast to the body, extreme to the crit.
Ease of use: good to excellent. The recoil can be a bit daunting, but can be learned and controlled with practice.
Range: Ummm...is none an option? Seriously though, CQC to far-close range, with closer being better. The exception is the Antiope, which seems to have a much further reach.
Pros: great accuracy in-air, very quick times to kill in the intended range. Very good for aggressive pushes or urgent defenses.
Cons: requires good reflexes and consistent recoil control to be at it's peak. Good use of vertical space is required to make these weapons be all they can be. Worthless outside f the intended range.
Ok, so let's get real. what is the best weapon type in the game right now? Honestly, the 450 rpm AR. It functions well across the most ranges with the most consistent times to kill. They dominate most pulses in the same range, compete with scouts, and can outgun hand cannons. They are sort of the total package.
Next up is a three-way tie between scouts, sidearms, and SMGs. All function exceptionally well inside of their intended ranges, and have great utility and TTK. Extremely close behind that are the pulses; i would have put them in the same category, but for reasons I'll mention, are just a shade lower.
Bringing up the rear is the hand cannon. With the slower TTK, lack of range, ability to be outgunned by AR's at any range, and side arms and SMGs up close, the hand cannon simply doesn't have a lot to recommend it in PvP (unlike PvE, where they can be amazing).
What does all that translate to? Basically a loadout without a 450 rpm AR is at an automatic disadvantage. from there, you are simply choosing if the AR will be you shorter or longer range weapon. Pair it with a scout, side arm, or SMG as desired. The exception is Vigilance Wing, which is deadly enough and kills quickly enough to cover the longer ranges. Unfortunately, anything else is not optimum, and puts you at a disadvantage in some respect or another.
Biggest apparent problems? The hand cannon is invalid as a weapon class currently. Too many other things do the same job or better, in all the ranges it can cover and are easier to use. And pulses are somewhat invalidated by ARs from the mid and scouts from the far ranges, making both of these types a weapon that feels like it's struggling for a purpose and a place to fulfill it in.
Additional issues? High-caliber rounds are vastly dominating, making the person that gets the first shot much more likely to win a duel, unless the skill gap is very large. Explosive rounds do roughly the same, but simply because of a visually distracting effect. These constitute winning fights because of random factors, rather than skill. They also contribute to all weapons without these perks being inferior to all weapons with them, creating a bit of invalidation.
Solutions: Keep in mind, I know none of these are perfect and aren't the end all be all solution. They are suggestions and starting points for conversations. That said...
Increase the severity of damage fall-off for ARs, and increase the gap between body and crit damage. At the same time, increase the flinch resistance of the weapons substantially. With the ease of use, range, and TTK, not doing something like this makes ARs the obvious go-to for everything. If they aren't changed, there is a good possibility that they will remain the dominant choice for a long time to come.
Increase the range on hand cannons by quite a bit, out into far-mid, but keep the same damage fall-off tiers (just spread them out more). Remove the bloom mechanic 100%, as it simply isn't a realistic factor for any other gun in the game. Fix hit registration so there are no more blank / drifting bullets. Make the gun kill in 3 crits, or 1 crit, 3 body. This keeps them from becoming powerhouses in all ranges, but allows them a chance to be competitive, or at least useful for something.
Fix pulses vanishing crit registration after a certain range; the recoil will handle that naturally if you're trying to stretch the barrel too far. Increase the TTK so they are on par with ARs and scouts.
Leave scouts, side arms, and SMGs alone, they are doing just fine. Increase the skill and positional requirement of the AR, shore up the weaknesses of the hand cannon and pulse, and I think we'll see a lot more varied and fun PvP play. Oh, and one last little request...
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6 RepliesEdited by A Broken Record: 10/17/2017 8:01:47 PMPulse rifles can use some love. Just used Vigilance wing for the 1st time and i must say it's a damn good. Are there any other pulse rifles besides lincoln green that are pretty decent in crucible :-p
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1 ReplyEdited by Jblackadawg: 10/17/2017 12:59:53 AMHandcannons have little to no flinch even when being shot with highcaliber rounds I think. Iv been able to shoot through alot of bullets that would knock auto rifles, subs, or scouts off target. The main problem wilth handcannons i feel are, like you said, the bloom effect that makes hit registration bad in many instances. I'll have my Judgement Handcannon square on another players head and miss and sometimes I miss even when aiming for the body if I spam the trigger. This coupled with low aim assist makes using a handcannon sometimes feel like using Macree the gunslinger in Overwatch. If they simply take away the bloom and improve hit registration i think Handcannons will be in a very good place. Edit: Prehaps also a rang increase wouldnt be a bad idea.
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1 ReplyFinally a weapons discussion that is civil and thoroughly researched. You OP deserve my upvote.
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4 RepliesWhats the handcannon "bloom" effect?
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3 Replies"Relax, it's just the Beta", they told us. "It's an old build...", they said.
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1 ReplyTrials of Osiris is so trash, and one of the reasons it has (and I think always has been) trash is the sheer weapon imbalance. The irony is light level no longer gives you an edge. But it points out that the real imbalance is in the weaponry. Iron Banner, Crucible, it's all the same now, showing that Bungie has (really never has) been able to understand their own product when it comes to PvP. That's all right to me in that this game is not PvP priority, nor should it be. If you can't see the best loot drops from raids, then you are purposely blind to what Bungie wants this game to focus on. Now saying that, if there is a pvp in the game, it should at least functionally work. Game companies, including Bungie, suck as far as being able to balance stuff, imo. It doesn't mean they don't try, or shouldn't try, but clearly you don't get to play most of what you want in pvp and also get to win. You have to pick whatever rng abortedly made too powerful by accident. Which is why as far as I know, nobody gives two flying you know what's about Trials, and mostly play crucible and Iron Banner until they tag the high level/special drops they want, then quit.
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3 RepliesHey I appreciate the write up! Very well said and on point! I basically agree with everything you've said, part of me realizes that AR's could be adjusted to realign the balance across the ranged game a bit to bring pulses up. But honesty I'd rather that they leave auto's alone because they feel so good for once! And instead just focus on buffing hand cannons and pulse rifles accordingly. This kind of discussion leads to a point where we need to consider if we're speeding up the ttk in general for pvp? My honest opinion is that decreasing the range on auto's is the easiest fix, but it's not the one I think I want or the game needs. If we speed up the ttk in general for pvp we can move away from holding hands all the time and start making some risky and skilled plays! Anyway I like your post and hope others can read and discuss :)
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2 Replies@Cosmo read this and bump
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1 ReplyAhem. Smg's don't kill faster than anything in the game. Last hope kills twice as fast as an antiope-d which is arguably the best smg atm. Thought I'd clear that up. #nerflasthope
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1 ReplyIs that one last request to nerf flinch, high cals, and explosive rounds
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1 ReplyEdited by Rusty: 10/15/2017 4:01:02 PMThe only change I think you need to add is recoil for burst fire sidearms to be on par with auto sidearms. They're way too stable and an smg against a last hope almost always favors the last hope due to identical optimal range even though smg's recoil aggressively.
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Great post, thank you.
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Prosecutor, Uriel's, and The Path forward are currently the best auto's in the game. Simply because of the accuracy boosts that they get. In this sense they will always be the best PvP auto's. However, at least in this case the other's are not to terribly far behind unless its Uriel's, the gun is by far the best PvP gun that is not a side arm. For Scout riffles there is only 1 that is a real contender in PvP and that's Mida. Even then it can be challenged by Auto's pretty well and if you are not at a pretty far range. In that case HC will pretty much carry you to victory. SMG's really they are a real dime a dozen. The notables are only Mini-tool and Antiope-D. Mini for obvious partnership reasons, and Antiope-D because it is literally the best primary SMG in the game. These two are really the only ones you should play with though. Pulse's are literally if they didn't have the recoil they currently have they would wreck. Especially pule's like Gravetron which is supposed to have a .87 TTK if you land the bullets. Vigilance would be absurd if it's its RPM in bursts was any good. Sidearms are all pretty crap but three: Last Hope, The fool's remedy, and w/e the raid's is. But those three are strong to straight busted when used right. Last Hope prolly is the best gun in the game. Hand cannons are only good in the 140 RPM range because their visual recoil makes the 150's to hard to hit and 110 rpm is garbo hard to hit because they have terrible recoil. Any easier to land shots and it would be much like the beta where they quickly took over as the best guns. That being said all the guns mentioned work and can actually be used. I would cool it on Grav though one HC shot and you ain't hittin shit. At least every type of gun has some representative creeping around somewhere.
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1 ReplyRemove the effect of high-caliber round and the visual effect of explosive rounds from PvP entirely. leaving HCR in PvP essentially negates and degrades the value of any weapon without it. It also invalidates player skill to a point, making you miss shots where you wouldn't have under normal circumstances. Natural flinch for this is fine, but amping it up on (what will eventually be) every gun everyone carries seems dumb and counter-productive. And honestly? The visual for explosive rounds is simply a distraction. Why does it exist in the game? To inform me of the fact that I'm being hit with them? Yeah, no one needs to know that information. It's not doing extra damage, it's not truly flinching me, it's just getting in the way of my brain's ability to process the visual cues, and has the same effect as HCR in the end. if we can make some adjustments along these lines, or whatever other line people suggest, I think the PvP arena can be much more open to play styles, and a lot more guns will get used. I'd love to know what the community at large thinks about both these suggestions and the issues raised. With any luck we can affect the balance changes without enacting blanket nerfs that ruin weapons categorically and create enforced metas.
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13 RepliesEdited by Slayride77: 10/14/2017 8:48:31 PMGreat write up. As far as putting Handcannons in a place that they can be competitive without nerfing flinch, 1 crit, 2 body shot should be the norm on the 110 speed HC (sturm, bad news, true prophecy). 2 crit, 1 body for the 140 (better Devils, judgement). 2/2 for the fast HCs. The TTK has made it hand cannons less than stellar. I can still go + easily. But your absolutely right, tap the enemy with an auto, while they hide, close the gap and finish up with the hard hit from the HC is about the only way to play them right now. They've been relegated to a secondary. I've played with every legendary and exotic HC in crucible so far...including the elusive Pribina-D. They all suffer from the same thing, TTK balanced with recoil. I'm in no way calling for a nerf to autos, they play great, handcannons need a TTK buff.