[quote]I think there are more important things to complain about other than a PvP map.[/quote] You mean [u]recycled content[/u], purposefully held-back content and fixes to add on as "new content" DLC, and heavy micro-transaction influence?

But the map is not locked behind a pay wall?

I mean that the map is an example of recycled content.

So you meant to say that any recycled content is bad? You clearly put forth that recycling it to sell it back to us again was the issue. Not the inclusion of said recycled content. I mean. Isn't one of the big points being made within the reselling content argument that Bungie should not have left all that great content in Destiny 1 behind? I would say the more they can bring back the better. And when it comes as a free update. there is really no reason to complain. Plus the map will probably not play even remotely close the Shores of Time. The pilosophy behind their map design changed drastically between Destiny 1 and Destiny 2. The map is likely going to be in line with that new design philosophy. People complaining about stuff like that being added as DLC also seem to have no understanding of how the real world works.

They've started not to bring back or revamp older content, but rather regurgitate and reskin features and content that were already made before, and should have been in Destiny 2 from the beginning (or at least added in by now, not concerning for map). Watch. For the Osiris DLC coming in December—Chritmas = profit—, they're going to bring back the Private Match and Game Mode Selection features that they've intentionally held back, so as to sell it as "new content" and give the false impression that they're "listening" to community feedback. As in this case, Shores of Time [i]is[/i] a good map (except in ToO), but my issue here is that Bungie is trying to deceive its own player base into thinking that it's "new and original content" by making it off as a "new map" with color and background changes. Bungie isn't taking any sort of creative or honest approach to bringing back old content, and it's probably never going to change. They sure haven't for the past [i]three years[/i].

I highly doubt that the map will only be a retexture. The design philosophy has changed too much between Destiny 1 and 2. Even if it was. It would still be free content. I see no reason to complain that they are bringing content forward from Destiny 1 when it's free. I don't really see the issue with them bringing content forward from Destiny 1 if we have to pay either. You have no moral high ground in this situation. You don't own the content that Bungie created. They do. If you don't want to pay for content that you already played a version of that is your prerogative. Bungie also have to consider this when releasing new content. It is in their best interest to make you want to buy said content. It also does not consider the context said content could take in it's new form. Maybe it's better, maybe it is worse. The fact that it has existed in some way before does not alone determine it's value for us as consumers.

I've already counter-argued all of this, so I'm not going to bother; you're just going to keep on saying the same thing without exactly knowing the whole context or meaning behind it, and act like as if anything you said was different. I've had to deal with a whole flood of angry half-baked arguments and death threats in PM all day because of [i]a single opinion or observation[/i].

Well thanks for being prejudiced towards me then. Hey if you don't want to involve yourself in a discussion. Perhaps you shouldn't post on a discussion board. Just a thought.

I'm stating how ridiculous it is how a whole shitstorm erupts whenever I give different input into a discussion; I point out that it's a rehashed map, and half of the youknowhaticles are trying to bite my d[b]i[/b]ck off.

Again. Thanks for the prejudice. I have been nothing, but civil towards you. I only pointed out the obvious flaw in your argument. If you cannot show me the same courtesy, well then that is on you.

What "prejudice" have I ever shown toward your argument? I acknowledged the points that you made, but you never did mine. You would just repeat the same thing in different words without regarding the counter-arguments I made. The only one showing "prejudice"—if meant in your context—here is you.

The prejudice comes from you not wanting to address my arguments because of how your arguments were received in different parts of the thread. Responses that you felt were hostile, but ultimately responses I had nothing to do with. As to your acknowledgement of my argument. I don't see it? You seem to be trying to spin every angle into some kind of conspiracy. Which is a conclusion based on assumptions and conjecture. Take this quote here f. ex. [quote]As in this case, Shores of Time is a good map (except in ToO), but my issue here is that Bungie is trying to deceive its own player base into thinking that it's "new and original content" by making it off as a "new map" with color and background changes.[/quote] You are attributing intent to something without knowledge, nor evidence. It is not even logical. If Bungie wanted to make us believe it was a new map they would not have shown us screenshots of the map that clearly showed us it was a remake of Shores of Time. It was so clear that many people in this thread, including you, thought it would be the exact same map. How is that deceiving us to thinking it is a new map? Not to mention that the map in question has a lot more changes than background and color changes. Not the least to talk about the scale. Distant shore is a lot smaller, to fit with the new design philosophy, than Shores of Time. Distances between A, B and C have been changed, which I assume, is an attempt to make the map more balanced. Is it a remake of shores of time? Yes it is, but it is definitely more than a reskin. It is also obvious that it is a remake, and it is free. So it does not fit within the narrative you are trying to sell. You seem to be more concerned with moving the goal posts to fit within your narrative than actually addressing the arguments.

[quote][quote]As in this case, Shores of Time is a good map (except in ToO), but my issue here is that Bungie is trying to deceive its own player base into thinking that it's "new and original content" by making it off as a "new map" with color and background changes.[/quote] You are attributing intent to something without knowledge, nor evidence. It is not even logical. [/quote] If you're dense enough for you to need me to elaborate on my statement about ToO, it was a terrible map for ToO—especially during Year Two—because it encourages long-distance camping, fleeing, and grouping. I remember, back in the sniper meta of Year Two, that there would always be the entire enemy team huddled in a bubble or behind a rock, hard-scoping with 1000-Yard Stare. As for my statement about deceit, it's because they've done this before—and that Cozmo changed the name of the thread when everyone started to catch on, which is sketchy in itself. Bungie, time and time again, has hyped up or misguided their audience so many times. For example, remember the intentional 0.04% Auto Rifle buff in Year Two, when they said it would be significant? Or the whole SBMM and CBMM controversy of Year Three, when they publicly stated that they were using CBMM when they weren't, then switched it over to CBMM to cover their tracks? This is another trick by Bungie: just enough to go under the radar of idiots. [quote]If Bungie wanted to make us believe it was a new map they would not have shown us screenshots of the map that clearly showed us it was a remake of Shores of Time. It was so clear that many people in this thread, including you, thought it would be the exact same map.[/quote] That's a benefit-of-the-doubt fallacy (or similar to one). The fact that they showed a screenshot that revealed it was a reskin of Shores of Time doesn't mean that they wanted us to know it was a reskinned map either. Additionally, as stated earlier, Cozmo changed the title of the thread once people caught on, and Bungie edited their tweet about it for the same reason. Thus, it was a large-scale, [i]planned[/i] statement that went wrong. How is that [u]not[/u] [trying to] deceive us to thinking it is a new map? [quote]How is that deceiving us to thinking it is a new map?[/quote] I just explained it. [quote]Not to mention that the map in question has a lot more changes than background and color changes. Not the least to talk about the scale. Distant shore is a lot smaller, to fit with the new design philosophy, than Shores of Time.[/quote] There are already people in the forums, in my clan, in Reddit, saying it's virtually identical to Shores of Time after playing in it (only that it's much more campy and slow because it's 4 vs 4). As such, that point is redundant. "Give me links, hater, scrub...loser! HAHA!!" You should be smart enough to find them yourself—I hope. If not, play it for yourself, and eat your words. [quote]Distances between A, B and C have been changed, which I assume, is an attempt to make the map more balanced.[/quote] It doesn't make it a different map. That's like saying Shores of Time [i]isn't[/i] Shores of Time if its control points were changed. [quote]Is it a remake of shores of time? Yes it is, but it is definitely more than a reskin. It is also obvious that it is a remake, and it is free. So it does not fit within the narrative you are trying to sell.[/quote] First, use a question mark. Secondly, it fits with the "narrative" I'm making because of these points I've already proven in this whole response: - Bungie has attempted to deceive the community (like they had many times in the past). - Bungie had tried (and failed in the eyes of competent people) to cover their tracks of deceit, [i]all over their media and outreach platforms[/i] (ex.: the whole thread name change and tweet edits mentioned earlier). - The map looks almost identical to Shores of Time, only with different colors and a rock ceiling over the central region. - Many players have already played in the "new map", and say it's virtually identical, only that it's darker in the central region because of the rock ceiling. All of these factors prove my point that it is a reskin and an attempt at deceit by Bungie toward its community. "They don't prove anything." Read and understand the arguments one makes and the evidence one presents, and maybe then you'll pass English class. [quote]You seem to be more concerned with moving the goal posts to fit within your narrative than actually addressing the arguments.[/quote] Nope. I've just proven that every point I've made has connection(s) to my thesis, and repeatedly saying that they don't isn't going to change that fact or make it appear like they don't. Thus, I have addressed the arguments before, and have addressed the arguments now.

[quote] If you're dense enough for you to need me to elaborate on my statement about ToO, it was a terrible map for ToO—especially during Year Two—because it encourages long-distance camping, fleeing, and grouping. I remember, back in the sniper meta of Year Two, that there would always be the entire enemy team huddled in a bubble or behind a rock, hard-scoping with 1000-Yard Stare. [/quote] I said nothing about your statement about Trials of Osiris. This come back is out of left field. [quote] As for my statement about deceit, it's because they've done this before—and that Cozmo changed the name of the thread when everyone started to catch on, which is sketchy in itself. Bungie, time and time again, has hyped up or misguided their audience so many times. For example, remember the intentional 0.04% Auto Rifle buff in Year Two, when they said it would be significant? Or the whole SBMM and CBMM controversy of Year Three, when they publicly stated that they were using CBMM when they weren't, then switched it over to CBMM to cover their tracks? This is another trick by Bungie: just enough to go under the radar of idiots. [/quote] None of those examples prove intent. It only points to how parts of this community have a tendency to react to such things. [quote] That's a benefit-of-the-doubt fallacy (or similar to one). The fact that they showed a screenshot that revealed it was a reskin of Shores of Time doesn't mean that they wanted us to know it was a reskinned map either. Additionally, as stated earlier, Cozmo changed the title of the thread once people caught on, and Bungie edited their tweet about it for the same reason. Thus, it was a large-scale, [i]planned[/i] statement that went wrong. How is that [u]not[/u] [trying to] deceive us to thinking it is a new map? [/quote] I have never heard of a benefit of the doubt fallacy. I tried to look it up. Does not seem to exist within the tenants of critical thinking and rationality. In fact the only reference I could find to "benefit of the doubt" and fallacies is that it is not considered a fallacy, but a pillar of the so called principle of charity within philosophy and rhetoric. It's very purpose is to avoid fallacies. You are also implying that I am attributing intent. I am not. I can't know the intent of bungie, but there is no logical reason for them to show us that the map was a remake of shores of time, if they wanted to deceive us. You also have not managed to show me or anyone else that by that paradoxical paragraph. [quote] [quote]How is that deceiving us to thinking it is a new map?[/quote] I just explained it. [/quote] Actually, you did not. [quote] There are already people in the forums, in my clan, in Reddit, saying it's virtually identical to Shores of Time after playing in it (only that it's much more campy and slow because it's 4 vs 4). As such, that point is redundant. [/quote] Anecdotal evidence, and untrue. The map is familiar because it is clearly supposed to be. It is designed to look and feel like Shores of Time. That is the point of a remake after all. However the map is quite different from a gameplay standpoint. Mostly because of the size. Distant Shore is a lot smaller than Shores of Time. Which again can be attributed to Bungie's new philosophy in map design, which again can be attributed to the new 4v4 format. Whether it is more or less campy now than it was is irrelevant. I still would like to add that my experience is the opposite of the opinion put forth here. Due the downscaled size of the map mobility is much more viable and needed to be successful on the map. Further more. All the popular sniper lanes have been adjusted to the degree that they are no longer as effective, making flanking a much more viable choice in any lane. [quote] "Give me links, hater, scrub...loser! HAHA!!" You should be smart enough to find them yourself—I hope. If not, play it for yourself, and eat your words. [/quote] Yet again, you find the need to apply your prejudice towards our conversation. Not to mention it's irrelevance. [quote] [quote]Distances between A, B and C have been changed, which I assume, is an attempt to make the map more balanced.[/quote] It doesn't make it a different map. That's like saying Shores of Time [i]isn't[/i] Shores of Time if its control points were changed. [/quote] You misunderstand me. The actual distance has changed. The physical properties of the map has changed. But even if it had not. It still shows a change in play-ability from a design perspective. Which means, even if the physical properties of the map had not changed, it would still not be the cut and paste job you want us to believe. [quote] First, use a question mark. [/quote] I did. [quote] Secondly, it fits with the "narrative" I'm making because of these points I've already proven in this whole response:[/quote] Ok.... Let's see it. [quote] - Bungie has attempted to deceive the community (like they had many times in the past). [/quote] You have yet to show proof of intent. This is nothing but conspiracy theories based on assumptions and conjecture. Where is the evidence? Where is the Motive? [quote] - Bungie had tried (and failed in the eyes of competent people) to cover their tracks of deceit, [i]all over their media and outreach platforms[/i] (ex.: the whole thread name change and tweet edits mentioned earlier). [/quote] Which I have seen no proof of, but even if you did. It is still no proof of the intent you are attributing the change. [quote] - The map looks almost identical to Shores of Time, only with different colors and a rock ceiling over the central region.[/quote] It is a remake. It is supposed to look like Shores of Time. [quote] - Many players have already played in the "new map", and say it's virtually identical, only that it's darker in the central region because of the rock ceiling. [/quote] Which is anecdotal at best. Not to mention that "virtually" is not an accurate descriptor. [quote] All of these factors prove my point that it is a reskin and an attempt at deceit by Bungie toward its community. [/quote] You clearly do not understand the meaning of the words evidence, proof or facts. [quote] "They don't prove anything." [/quote] No they do not. There is no objective proof being presented here. [quote] Read and understand the arguments one makes and the evidence one presents, and maybe then you'll pass English class. [/quote] Not that it has any relevance to the topic at hand, but I already passed it. Got an A in both verbal and written English. Considering your tone, there is no wonder you met with hostility in other parts of this thread. [quote] Nope. I've just proven that every point I've made has connection(s) to my thesis, and repeatedly saying that they don't isn't going to change that fact or make it appear like they don't. Thus, I have addressed the arguments before, and have addressed the arguments now.[/quote] You do not understand the word fact. You do not understand the word thesis. And you cannot lay the claim to have proven anything beyond reasonable doubt. You have laid forth an opinion based on assumptions and conjecture. The fact that you have presented said assumptions and conjecture does not make them anything other than assumptions and conjecture.

I showed you proof, time and time again, but no matter what I fling at your fandom-washed brain, you will acknowledge nothing I state. Your reasons as to why my evidence "doesn't prove anything" is circular reasoning: *evidence* "How is that true?" *evidence* "But that doesn't prove anything." *evidence proving the evidence* "But how do you know that's true?" *more evidence* "That doesn't prove anything." That's the pattern I've seen you state this whole time: I've given examples of my argument, presented evidence, even past events that reflect my point, but make no attempt to actually [i]prove[/i] their falsehood. You simply state it's false without background. If Bungie took this same approach as they did before when deceiving the community, how is it not valid? You can't keep giving Bungie the benefit of the doubt when they make the same kind of mistakes repetitively for the past [i]three years[/i] and say that none of it reflects "Bungie's intentions". That's like saying—on a much larger scale of magnitude—that Nixon was never guilty of interference with justice or political malpractice, although he did many things that danced on the edge of being unconstitutional. His intentions were unconstitutional, and it was reflected by his actions. Words and promises are one thing, but actions are another. Bungie's made many promises and statements, but made little to genuinely benefit the community—and if at all, a very minuscule and vocal minority.

[quote]I showed you proof, time and time again, but no matter what I fling at your fandom-washed brain, you will acknowledge nothing I state. Your reasons as to why my evidence "doesn't prove anything" is circular reasoning: [/quote] In no way does community reception represent proof of intent for Bungie. How is that so hard to understand? Someones opinion. No matter if it is held by the majority or not, can not be considered objective proof. It is still just opinion. If you are trying to prove the truth of something you need to show objective evidence. Not point to your or anyone else's opinion. Because it is inconsequential in the consideration of what is true or not. [quote] That's the pattern I've seen you state this whole time: I've given examples of my argument, presented evidence, even past events that reflect my point, but make no attempt to actually [i]prove[/i] their falsehood. You simply state it's false without background. [/quote] As long as you seem adamant about describing opinion as evidence you will see that pattern everywhere. Try to look at thing objectively with the principle of charity (thanks for showing me this one btw). [quote] If Bungie took this same approach as they did before when deceiving the community, how is it not valid? [/quote] Intent on all of those previous occasions you keep referencing have also yet to be proven. Again. Presenting assumption and conjecture as evidence does not change that it is assumption and conjecture. It can be used as justification for your opinion, but it is not proof of any fact. You really need to understand the difference before you put forth any claims of evidence. [quote]You can't keep giving Bungie the benefit of the doubt when they make the same kind of mistakes repetitively for the past [i]three years[/i] and say that none of it reflects "Bungie's intentions". [/quote] Well is it mistakes or is it by design? Cause you are claiming that it is by design, not by mistake. Bungie makes lots of mistakes. You can perhaps show us said mistakes and use that to determine a pattern of neglect. Proving intent is much harder however. [quote] That's like saying—on a much larger scale of magnitude—that Nixon was never guilty of interference with justice or political malpractice, although he did many things that danced on the edge of being unconstitutional. His intentions were unconstitutional, and it was reflected by his actions. [/quote] Really? You are comparing this to watergate? You seriously think what you have presented is comparable to the evidence recovered in that scandal? Seriously there exists more hard evidence for 9/11 being a white flag operation than what you are presenting here. Stop jumping to conclusions and try to use objective reasoning. [quote] Words and promises are one thing, but actions are another. Bungie's made many promises and statements, but made little to genuinely benefit the community—and if at all, a very minuscule and vocal minority.[/quote] Which seems to allude to the conspiracy theory that Bungie made changes to Destiny 1 based on forum outrage, which is quite ironic considering the preposition you are putting forth. And please stop thinking that practicing rationality and objective reasoning is equal to fandom. I personally think Bungie is one of the most overrated developers in the history of video games. At times I think they are idiots. My opinion on the subject is however, only opinion. It cannot be considered proof or factual evidence.

You've just literally proven my point.

Just because you said I would deny it does not make your point true. I can put forth any dumb opinion and say that you will outright deny it therefore my argument is true. It does not make any sense. I have, in detail, pointed out why your arguments are pointless. They are filled with nothing but subjective opinions, assumptions and conjecture. If you want to come up with a convincing argument you need to produce facts and then objectively show us how those facts relate to your conclusion. I implore you to give it a try, though I am starting to doubt if you even can. And please stop with the Ad Hominems.

This is really bad bait, because you're literally just repeating my argument in a reverse context.

At this point the irony of you criticizing my English capabilities becomes all too funny. I don't even know if you understand what you are typing anymore. I haven't actually put forth an opinion that counters yours directly. I have pointed out flaws in your arguments. First it was that you compared free content to content behind a paywall. Then it was that your argument was based on conspiracy theories without any basis in evidence. When pressed about said lack of evidence you try to flip it around on me? Do you understand the burden of proof?

My guy, almost every FPS brings community favourite maps back in their games... stop reaching.

Shores of Time [i]is[/i] a good map (except in ToO), but my issue here is that Bungie is trying to deceive its own player base into thinking that it's "new and original content" by making it off as a "new map" with color and background changes.

I mean... as far as destiny 2 goes, it is a new map, there are more than just returning players. Js.