[quote]What is a global measurement for fun? There is none, as what people call fun is an opinion. However, most people don't think this raid's mechanics are fun.[/quote] Citation on that one, boss. This raid is objectively the most complex Bungie has created. That alone implies a few things that are strongly associated with quality entertainment value. [quote]Most of the time there are just a couple guys jumping through holes and doing crappy parkour while the other guys casually shoot a few cabal.[/quote] This is just you drastically downplaying any non combat roles. It's a clear bias. Guess you hate jumping puzzles too, something included in every raid for various reasons all central around their their entertainment value. [quote]Every raid thus far has had multiple bosses, and most people enjoy that. The exhilaration of slaying an enemy leader is much more than successfully jumping through a series of holes.[/quote] Same as above. You just have a bias favoring combat roles and you're downplaying non combat raid sections. As long as a section is well made it doesn't matter whether it's a Dark Souls boss or a Dance Dance Revolution challenge. [quote]Some of the chests contain only glimmer, no tokens or gear or anything. Also, you need like thirty tokens to get something good. The old system of 'your loot is in the chest at the end of an encounter' is much better than 'we [i]might[/i] give you loot, but you will probably get tokens that you have to grind for to get loot'. Why do we need tokens in the first place? They just add more grinding to a game that is already all about grinding.[/quote] Pretty sure the only exclusively glimmer chests are the ones for opening the doors in the castellum, ergo a transitional area. Plus, all the chests in the underbelly have legendery or exotic engrams (sometimes both) plus more tokens. Tokens don't add grinding. That doesn't make sense. It's just a system of distribution to fit Bungie's idea of balance between guarantee and RNG. In an old raid bad RNG meant little to no drops. In this one bad RNG just means less random engrams. Even if you don't get a good amount of tokens you can save them up, always making progress to your preferred loot. [quote]If you run out of token, you wipe. Raids were much better when there has a timed re spawn.[/quote] To me the standard is death = permanent unless using self-res. Why would anyone run a normal mode raid in end game Light levels? Running out of tokens was never a concern for my team. [quote]I mean the checkpoints are tedious because you have to pull a ton of levers to get back to [i]almost[/i] where you were before. Why can't we keep the old checkpoint method?[/quote] Old method obviously doesn't work on a raid that's not directly linear. Navigation is part of the challenge of this raid and it's fresh and intuitive. It's plenty rewarding thanks to the nearly dozen hidden chests too. It's also more logical in the game's lore that we have to get back inside after leaving, and the re-entry ritual takes like 2 minutes anyway. [quote]Wellnow we finally got a conversation started[/quote] Close enough.