[quote]Slow TTK "Primary" weapons would make SC strong. CQC Maps would make SC strong. (Destiny Loves CQC maps). Having FEW enemies with counter weapons makes SC strong (Most of the time, 1 out of 4 guys will have a counter weapon, assuming the one he's using is a good counter, that's not a whole lot).[/quote] This explanation is already known and countered. Whether you believe it or not, Titans without the full max armor buff and a shoulder charge build is, unless they show the newer data they have, one of the lowest average k/d spreads out of the titan build tree's. Sorry, but as I said to the other user, absolutely NO subclass should have their abilities nerfed to the point guns + a melee should become useless. If you want the better approach, you tear it all down and say how certain warlock builds will counter and reverse other class builds. You then match players build up the easier strategies and start balancing. As of right now? There is solid proof shoulder charge titans should remain a OHK. As always, feel free to express your opinion on why you think it should be otherwise, but the case is already settled and as my original post indicates? I want different and similar opinions. If you cannot see both, your opinion will collectively be written off. This game of let's cut grenade damage on my song of flame warlock and usage of shadestep while not nerfing golden gun or arcblade regen and the obvious titan hammers when people weren't using the high impact snipers in the game when they claimed to? Sorry, but I'm tired of nerfing abilities. Absolutely ZERO people want their subclass to NOT have a OHK built in SOMEWHERE and that is exactly what I am saying.

[quote]This explanation is already known and countered. Whether you believe it or not, Titans without the full max armor buff and a shoulder charge build is, unless they show the newer data they have, one of the lowest average k/d spreads out of the titan build tree's.[/quote] Incorrect. This "counter" ONLY applies to D1, where EVERYONE has/had constant access to special weapons, primary weapons in the competitive bound had optimal kill times of under a second, and their own OHK abilities. D2 kill times of primary weapons are longer. That gives SC a larger window to charge at someone and not die. Only one out of four of your enemies, most of the time, will potentially have a " SC Counter weapon" in D2 because only one person can pick up ammo from the power ammo box. So less chances of you instantly dying trying to SC someone. In D2, landing a shoulder charge and living shouldn't be anywhere near the issue it is in D1 because people just don't have the same killing power anymore. If D1 SC, as it is now, was in the D2 Sandbox, would extremely likely prove to be overbearingly strong because of the several increase in times to kill and access to other OHK abilities. The problem is you've got D1 on the brain when you're looking at D2 in terms of a balance. You have to consider D2's sandbox when looking at why something is changed. D1 SC would not work in D2's Sandbox as a balanced ability. [quote]Sorry, but as I said to the other user, absolutely NO subclass should have their abilities nerfed to the point guns + a melee should become useless.[/quote] So far, SC is the only thing that is potentially useless (and that is if it's just D1 SC with no OHK, which is under the assumption that it has not been retooled like many of the other abilities in D2). But guns? Guns are not useless. Since everything has been rounded down, it's now the new standard. There'd only be "useless guns" if a particular batch was outpreforming the rest, but given everything we've seen in D2 none of the weapons really stand out. Yeah they've been slowed, but that's with the overall pace [quote]Absolutely ZERO people want their subclass to NOT have a OHK built in SOMEWHERE and that is exactly what I am saying.[/quote] False. I am one, and I've seen plenty of people happy to see the great reductions of OHKs. I was never found of the whole "Round a corner... and instantly dead before you can react" Meta's Destiny has had for months with bungie trying, and failing to curb down. I'm going to ignore any pushes of this statement moving forward, because it is simply you projecting your stance on the community. I'm not going to say people DON'T agree, I've seen plenty of people who agree with you and don't like these changes, but just as much as I've seen many people praise the changes (myself included) as well, but it is a very divided subject among the community. You'll see plenty of people on both side. [quote]As of right now? There is solid proof shoulder charge titans should remain a OHK. [/quote] In D1's sandbox, yes. Not D2's as far as we've seen. [quote]Sorry, but as I said to the other user, absolutely NO subclass should have their abilities nerfed to the point guns + a melee should become useless.[/quote] [quote]You are right though, they should either be more to the ability or it should be removed[/quote] But yes, [u]and again[/u], think you are right in that D1 shoulder charge would be worthless without the ability to one hit kill in D2, and that it cannot exist like that as it would otherwise be a dead perk. However we've yet to see what D2 Shoulder charge is like with any other changes they could have possibly made. Take Angel of Light for example. D1 it was hard to use as the duration was short, and it made you a sitting duck, as a result? underuse. So D2 fixes this by granting increased duration on precision hits, and giving the Warlock a NEW ability to allows them to both descend quickly and regain some health (as well as the ability will less "sitting duck" because of less OHK abilities and a lot less snipers, go figure). That's a significant change... so who's to say SC hasn't undergone a metamorphosis of it's own? They said Shoulder Charge wasn't a one hit kill, but perhaps combined with a melee charge it be a two hit kill (because remember, it's 3 melee's to kill now), which in D2's sandbox could still prove strong if you blindside someone and probably one of the fastest TTKs you can get in the game, faster than primary weapons. They've also could have improved/changed the overall mechanics and characteristics. Time to activate, length of window, distance covered or lunge distance, speed, homing, amount of knockback, etc. [quote]Sorry, but I'm tired of nerfing abilities.[/quote] Everyone is. However D1 shipped broken, and finished broken. D2 is an attempt at a more solid start. weed out what people had complaints about (and OHK things are one of the biggest complaints from start to end of Destiny), start fresh and move forward, instead of trying to patch things that were broken from the start. They can't fix Destiny without making harsh changes that not everyone will agree with. It is what it is.