{{
`${userDetail.user.displayName}${userDetail.user.cachedBungieGlobalDisplayNameCode ? `#${standardizeBungieGlobalCode(userDetail.user.cachedBungieGlobalDisplayNameCode)}` : ""}`}}
{{getUserClans()}}
Edited by HRH FURY:
5/29/2017 2:42:16 PM
55
Luke Smith's Shell Game
I'm going to attempt to use an analogy (albeit it's not perfect) to help those who may not understand how a P2P network (hybrid or not) works vs Dedicated Servers....
P2P (no matter who the host is - even if it's Bungie) acts like those old Christmas lights that run in "series".... any one light (client) that has trouble will substantially affect the entire series, worse yet if you have several lights causing problems they compound to blow the fuse (close as I could get to the effect) ...
Conversely Dedicated Servers work like Christmas lights in "parallel" meaning if one light has issues, it doesn't effect the rest of the strand of lights at all (it's issue is isolated from affecting the rest of the lights). Hope that makes sense?
So if your lights are still put together "in series" no matter who the "chief light" is (ie. the host controlling physics, etc) in that "series" you are still going to be affected in the same way when one, or any, or all the lights have issues just like before. And the more lights that have issues, the bigger the problems are going to be, because their problems compound in a P2P series.
Opinion: It's disappointing to see Bungie mislead its customer base time and time again. It's as if the are running a shell game on the streets of New York and they keep suckering us in to keep betting....and why is that? It's because we have hope we'll finally get the game it should be, a game that Bungie holds back from reaching its full potential.....OR at minimum we want to believe they aren't really cheating or lying to us.
Bottom line, It's up to us to voice our discontent loud enough that Bungie/Activision fix these glaring and substantial issues. Sadly, it appears that they don't or won't improve anything until it threatens their bottom line; because customers are no longer "snowed" by their myriad of half truths, broken commitments, and outright lies. Make Destiny Great!
English
#Destiny
-
Even Network Engineers at Bungie don't know, unless Bungie leaks, what Bungie does. They keep it that secret. That's why Voice Boy couldn't comment at the Reveal (LS didn't know either). It's Top Secret, and, he has no Top... TLDR: LS sent a message (TWAB) after he got a memo the week after the Reveal. Memo headline was: Sorry Mr Smith, but we couldn't get it to you for the Reveal, Lag 😳
-
5 RepliesThere is a lot more going on than just "in P2P, if a node sucks, it affects every other, and DS fixes all that". People really should read the GDC presentation about D1's networking model and consider the difference highlighted in "This week at Bungie" for D2, that the physics host is running in the cloud with the other Destiny servers. To people who understand this stuff, it [i]is[/i] a theoretical improvement. In practice? It's hard to say as this kind of model is unique to D2, as was the last one to D1. We'll have to see. But this scheme is now much closer to a pure client/server model. They're not lying about that. They're also not lying about it being more expensive to them than D1's model. Running the Bubble and Mission Hosts in the cloud did not require a lot of CPU time as their jobs were simple and not computationally intensive, but the Physics Hosts will, because they'll be running everything the consoles used to in D1 short of rendering. And about that remaining P2P connections: if I understand correctly, from what they said and their stated goals, it's there so that each console in the network gets the state of the other players directly, without it going through the host. In short, they are trying to eliminate the most annoying symptom of lag in a client/server setup (unresponsiveness to player commands) while keeping its advantages. So, chill out people. Bungie's network devs are actually trying to get the best of both worlds with their hybrid model. It just might work.
-
1 ReplyEdited by Doctor Electric: 5/30/2017 2:41:57 PMI wouldn't say misleading. mis·lead·ing ˌmisˈlēdiNG/ adjective adjective: misleading giving the wrong idea or impression. I'd say they were pretty straightforward about the servers. Seeing as how they made a blog post about it. [spoiler]The people on this post are suddenly network engineers. Weird[/spoiler]
-
Yup totally agree, really sad that d2 has basically no improvements and just a guck load or reskins... but hey we get a story now.... we should all rejoice and jump for joy. As if having an actual story in a game is this great big Mount Everest of an accomplishment great job bungie I'm extremely impressed. For those that don't know what sarcasm is....
-
-
Well said
-
6 RepliesHmmm. Believe a network engineer or some salty kid on the forums?
-
It's P2P hybrid with a Dedicated Bungie server always taking host. Now explain that in your analogy.
-
3 RepliesDo you have any background knowledge on network architecture or is this knowledge you've researched and compiled into a thread?
-
7 RepliesThere's an interesting doc on Destiny 1's p2p architecture. http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1022247/Shared-World-Shooter-Destiny-s If you look at page 7 there's a diagram showing the connections. Rather then connect to each other through a string (like the Christmas lights) all the peers connect directly to the host. Your christmas light analogy doesn't seem to match. Is the diagram on page 7 wrong?
-
21 RepliesOkay. Let's talk about dedicated servers, using your analogy: Say you bought those Christmas lights, the ones where one light can go out, but the rest stay on. You're happy with them, they're bright and (almost) everlasting. But then you get a letter in the mail about a month later from the store you purchased the lights from. Turns out that if you wish to continue to have the lights up, you will have to pay a service fee to ensure that the lights remain up on your house. This is terrible news; you're already paying the electricity bill, so why do you need to pay for this service fee? You send a reply back with these questions, to which they answer saying that this is the standard for these kinds of Christmas lights. They may be amazing, but if they do not get services frequently, they will all short out and never turn on again. Had you bought the other lights, the store would easily repair those ones for free at no further charge. [spoiler]To basically summarise: - Bungie gets dedicated servers. - Bungie pays for use of servers. - Bungie eventually loses money due to lack of funds, thanks to servers. - Bungie has to incur a subscription fee to cover the costs. - Destiny 2 loses players due to quitters not wanting to pay. - Servers are shut down due to lack of paying players. - No more Destiny 2.[/spoiler] Also, in before you mention the "billions" they made from Destiny 1. It costs money to make money and the "billions" they made were used to cover the costs of making, promoting and running the game, the business and everything in between.
-
1 ReplyEdited by Darowing: 5/28/2017 9:01:09 AM[quote]We’d keep all the combat and physics peer-to-peer, so we have a responsive action game with low latency. This allows us to give players the feeling of immediacy in all their moving and shooting [/quote] bungie, you will earn shit until you accept causality. __ Just write a damn -blam!-ing antilag code that deals with player position and movement! just determine the position of every player on the server and send all positions from every player back to every player! frame per frame. simple! and for the ai too. you spent already 50 lifetimes on it.... whats the problem. wasting money? if someone has a bad ping and the packets are too late or lost on the way to the server, just drop them. udp ftw dont update anything for a lagger on the server, no position... nothing ... only the damage received. send the positions of every player back, including the lagger. he should get stuck, if his last packets were bad. ___ now they have a gameserver(physics host) on a cloud. there is no excuse for lag anymore! ____ you have to code a maximum movement speed. if a player gets hit by an explosion and moves faster... no input is possible. stuff like that is needed. if the game realy launches on pc ... even simple memory manipulation will -blam!- you.
-
1 Reply
-
2 RepliesI feel like OP wanted to sound smart and took 2 hours to write this bc he kept looking up how it works and how this or that is spelled just wanted to sound smart. It just reads that way idk.
-
6 RepliesYep. P2P = AIDS SBMM = Giving cancer to the aids patient.
-
1 ReplyI'm happy with the game though, I actually appreciate what I get. I loved D1, so I'll love D2. That simple
-
So stop betting......
-
1 ReplyNot a good analogy, your misleading your audience. You say that p2p even if Bungie's servers mess up, it effects everyone. Then say that if one light messes up in a dedicated server it doesn't effect anyone else. Well if Bungie's light, or server messes up, it effects everyone. It doesn't matter if it's p2p or dedicated servers. The same as if you have one player with a bad connection, he will be rubber banding even on a dedicated server. Now with dedicated servers, it's obviously better than the traditional p2p we have come to loath, and hate. While destiny 2's change in how Bungie's servers will handle the physics, and it won't be up to someone's console, it should be a vast improvement to destiny's version. While it's not all going to be all client based servers handing the entire load, it doesn't mean that it won't be good enough to handle things. While I am not completely sold on the system, I haven't seen it in action either, so I'm reserving judgement on it.
-
Edited by xI Vorpal Ix: 5/29/2017 3:52:26 AMYep if 1 light is a Red Bar Warrior and the hybrid server lets it run wild we will still be in the same position! The Hybrid System just needs to kick Red Bar Warriors or at lest ensure that they get frozen until connection improves most of all let that person know it's THEM. So many RBWs think they don't have a problem, which is fair because Bungie don't advise them. If they use animal code errors then make use of the term Dog Sht internet but most importantly LET THEM KNOW! Don't use Wifi it's normally the red bar reason, plug your ethernet in, Check your router, turn it off. Then contact your ISP and get better internet. Microsoft offer free dedicated servers if Sony are in such high regard why don't they provide Dedicated for their users??
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrRlhXtwUd0 43mins in Mooch Speculates Scorpio D2 framerate is different and could use Interpolation to get up to 60, this could mean the game still technically runs at 30 fps interms of Networking. Sounds like speculation on an "off the record comment" from a dev person. Pure Speculation.. now we wait for E3.
-
You do realize that all core mechanics and rendering will be hosted by bungies dedicated servers but the individual movements of the player character will be left to said player. I understand what you're saying. Do you understand why your "analogy" does not apply to D2? If not let me clarify, the world and all connections are linked to bungies potatoes or "servers" (they're not actually potatoes but might as well be eh!) and the only thing that is hosted by the player is going to be your individual character. This means that no single player is going to be the soul connection to the potatoes at bungie HQ, but rather we all connect to the potatoes individually and the potatoes let us define our individual characters on our own within the given limitations. While this does not completely eliminate lag, this alternative to purely dedicated servers is just a effective seeing as it allows flexibility on our end without giving up core support on there end (I.E. interfering with frame rates and connection speeds).
-
6 RepliesEdited by Surprised Brony: 5/28/2017 10:28:27 AMForeword: I would have liked dedicated servers. I'm not torn up about it, nor am I under false pretenses that they would have fixed the game. Even with dedicated servers, Halo 5 has problems. Hell, Battlefield has problems. You know what happens with dedicated servers? The same shit. The laggy guy will teleport and shoot you through walls no matter what. Red bar warriors will never disappear. Red bars almost never get host anyway. Even so, a dedicated server is just a host that isn't playing. How that differs from a player host in a way that is as night and day as Series and Parallel, I'll never know. It has upsides such as preventing high ping hosts, but the game doesn't like to allow that anyway. What I'm saying here is that dedicated servers wouldn't have solved Destiny's networking issues anyway. It would have been nice to get rid of any possibility of a shitty host, but it won't get rid of red bar gods. Whether that was the reason you want dedicated servers or not, I'm not sure. If you just want to be rid of crap hosts, they'll help immensely. If you want red bars to go away, I'm sorry. Dedicated servers won't fix it. Edit to clarify: The reason dedicated servers wouldn't help red bars is because player actions are handled on the client level to allow the game to feel responsive and snappy. Ever play a Halo CO-OP campaign online with a crappy host? Everything you did had to go through their connection first. Inputs such as running and shooting could take seconds to register. That's the only way to keep client A's bad connection from directly affecting client B's experience. You'd have to handle everything server-side. You do not want that in a competitive game. Therefore, dedicated servers can only help so much.
-
18 RepliesThis analogy is incredibly incorrect. P2P and dedicated servers both have pros and cons for connection quality (completely ignoring cost) and pretending like dedicated servers are a magical cure-all is misleading at best.
-
2 RepliesI don't think you read or understood the blog post. Destiny 2 is moving the gameplay controller to the cloud, where in D1 it was the responsibility of a player host. They said the reason they didn't move the player controller to the cloud was to keep the game feeling crisp Its a great solution in theory, lets just wait and see how it pans out. It means no more games affected by streamers uploading and lag switching
-
Sorry but muted tired of seeing these shit posts i understand where your coming from but enough is enough
-
Destiny pvp sucks no matter what or who the host is.
