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3/28/2017 4:11:56 PM
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[url=https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v1toxr0xAY0]link[/url] Watch this, go to the part where he stands across the courtyard on bannerfall. Then tell me that sidearms have significant damage dropoff.
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Edited by RAIST5150: 3/28/2017 5:35:09 PMStaged and controlled setting against a still target. Demonstrates the theoretical potential matchup against a 22 RoF, 81 impact HC with a .86 base theoretical TTK vs the .60 theoretical base TTK. There was no comparison given for faster firing or higher impact weapons. Either one might tell a slightly different tale. The video even mentions the situation may not necessarily hold true in a live fire scenario. At the ranges where the potential DPS balances between the types of weapons used, skill and such comes into play for determining the victor when such weapons are competing. Not like we can't see the same thing happening with other weapons...saw it happen a lot in the previous META period with different weapons. You will always be able to find such scenarios. Keep in mind also at the range this was done, you are breaching a 1 second time to kill. Let that sink in for a moment. 7 shots... Takes just over one second. 4 shot TTK is 0.60: 7/4 * 0.60 comes to 1.05, and that is theoretical timing, not exactly real life timing. As such, there are better options to kill with at that distance than a HC. So if you intend to play more at such ranges... Might be a better option for you to use. Basically it isn't a given that either one is going to be a definite win. In isolated scenarios, one may have the advantage over the other... But that can be said for countless mash-ups out there. It isn't something uniquely strange about these two weapons. Really nothing new to the process... just new data to process and apply so we can <hopefully> make better choices going forward. Learn the limits of your weapon of choice, learn more about your environment, assess your opponents, and try to make better choices. Same as it ever was.... (in case people weren't aware, sidearms have always been like this)
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I was simply using that to show the range that sidearms have, I was not trying to make any inferences on game balance.
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[quote]I was simply using that to show the range that sidearms have, I was not trying to make any inferences on game balance.[/quote] Regardless, the response would be the same. You are taking a 0.60 TTK weapon and pushing it to a longer TTK than stronger options at that range. All weapons floor their damage at some point. Even an AR will hit for 50% damage at 75 meters. Doesn't automatically follow that is a wise way to engage your opponents.
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I don't see what's the problem....
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A sidearm kills faster at 70m with all body shots than an eyasluna does with all headshots....
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[quote]A sidearm kills faster at 70m with all body shots than an eyasluna does with all headshots....[/quote] And many scouts can kill faster than that at that range. Talking models that retain full damage, or just a hair off it, at 70 meters. So does that mean scouts are OP now?
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No, because a scout will not beat a sidearm at close range. However, a sidearm beats nearly every weapon at close range, medium range, and sometimes even long range as you have seen. Sidearms do not have a defined enough effective range. Scouts have a VERY defined effective range. That is the difference.
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[quote]No, because a scout will not beat a sidearm at close range. However, a sidearm beats nearly every weapon at close range, medium range, and sometimes even long range as you have seen. Sidearms do not have a defined enough effective range. Scouts have a VERY defined effective range. That is the difference.[/quote] Actually, the complaint centers around how the damage drop off stops at a set range and you can still hit targets beyond that point. News flash! That holds true across the board. And yes, sidearms do in fact have a defined ideal range...a range where it reasonably retains it's faster TTK than other options. That may vary a bit by player, based on their proficiency with them. But as a general rule one should expect it to certainly fall inside of 30 meters, where they are hitting right around 53% of base damage. At that point you are flirting with a full second or longer TTK, which is not optimal considering other options. I discovered my sweet spot last year...15-25 meters. But I also discovered the sweet spot for my primaries were further out, so for me SA usage is very limited. I think I got 2, maybe 3 SA kills out of 7 matches last night because players were pushing in too close on me.
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Except sidearms are actually somewhat usable at EVERY range (short, medium, and long). Of course at long range they will be less effective, but at that range they should be borderline useless.
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[quote]Except sidearms are actually somewhat usable at EVERY range (short, medium, and long). Of course at long range they will be less effective, but at that range they should be borderline useless.[/quote] And so are pulses. Some AR's actually do well at long ranges too. Snipers. Scouts to some extent. A lot of weapons have a lot more flexibility than many realize, especially when someone wants to put themselves wide open for over a second. Technically...if you can see someone well enough to align a shot, you can hit them for damage. The deciding factor is whether you can do it more effectively than your opponent. Whoop dee doo! People finally discovered a weapon is extremely flexible after being in the game for over a year. Never mind there is a decent list of much better options available at the ranges they are complaining about. Good grief.
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It is only this flexible because of other weapons not having special though. Before, shotguns kept sidearms in check at close range, fusions at mid range, and snipers at long range. Now that these rarely have ammo, the only thing left to keep them in check are primaries. But primaries can not do this. Sidearms have a .8 second time to kill with ONLY body shots. There are only two primary archetypes in the entire game that have a ttk lower than that, high impact pulses and high impact scouts. But both of these primaries require all headshots to do what a sidearm can do with all body shots. AND both of these primaries are only good at LONG RANGE. There are no primaries in the game that can counter sidearms at close to mid range. Zero. Lastly, I often hear the argument that sidearms are powerful because they are specials, and have limited ammo. They do not. You can use them like a primary, and this is unfair.
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Edited by RAIST5150: 3/28/2017 7:51:47 PM[quote]It is only this flexible because of other weapons not having special though. Before, shotguns kept sidearms in check at close range, fusions at mid range, and snipers at long range. Now that these rarely have ammo, the only thing left to keep them in check are primaries. But primaries can not do this. Sidearms have a .8 second time to kill with ONLY body shots. There are only two primary archetypes in the entire game that have a ttk lower than that, high impact pulses and high impact scouts. But both of these primaries require all headshots to do what a sidearm can do with all body shots. AND both of these primaries are only good at LONG RANGE. There are no primaries in the game that can counter sidearms at close to mid range. Zero. Lastly, I often hear the argument that sidearms are powerful because they are specials, and have limited ammo. They do not. You can use them like a primary, and this is unfair.[/quote] Actually, sidearms have been like this for at least nearly a year (the limit of my personal experience with them). It is why one has been strapped by my side almost constantly for almost a year now, since I got my first jabberhakke. I only swap it out for special situations, mostly in PvE engagements. Their flexibility in a firefight has nothing to do with the state of special ammo. Their popularity maybe, but not how they perform in a fight--that is how they have been ever since I got my first one last summer. And shotguns didn't keep sidearms in check. In fact it was more the other way around...SA was a counter to SG. A quick swap around the 30m mark during the approach, unloading at least 2 or 3 rounds before they got close enough for their OHK. At worst it was a trade...if you spooked them into firing too early, you had them dead to rights before they got the second shot off. That still holds true to this day as well. And your theories on primary aren't exactly accurate. I've dusted my fair share of sidearm users with my primaries. PDX, Hopscotch, Hawksaw, ARI, Hawkmoon, Ill Will, Uffern, Song, DIS, Distant Star...even NL-Shadow, DYK, and HDY. And those are just a handful of weapons I've farted around with in Crucible. Oh yeah.. Forgot about CD's, both the scout and Pulse--even without HCR. Every one of those weapons and more can beat a sidearm user when more effectively deployed. There is more to it than the raw theoretical numbers in play. Frame rate augments timing, as it goes to reaction timing. Lag...not just electronic, but also human reaction timing. Awareness. There are a LOT of variables in play. It isn't just about the numbers in the spread sheet. The game is not played in a vacuum with static test subjects. You don't necessarily win a fight because you pull out a certain weapon. You might be favored to win by the weapon stats... but not always a sure win in your corner simply because of weapon x vs. weapon y. I beat a lot of Clever Dragon users during the HCR craze with my PDX, even though on paper it looks like it was destined to loose. And no... mine does not have the HCR perk on it.
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It been that way for the longest... blame bungie for watering down all primaries. Not sidearms It was not a issue when shotguns and snipers was running around the crucible, but it is an "issue" with a sidearm aka the only non OHK special to have some shine time.
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Thanks for sharing the link to prove my right! :)
