Not true. More people play PvE in this game than play PvP each day. Skorri's doesn't do anything until the bearer [i]already has[/i] their super fully charged. By that time everyone else in the game is going to have theirs, or be close if people are camping. ...and if you can't figure out how to deal with the camping.....

That's complete bullshit. I'll usually have my super by the end of round two. By that time most people are not even halfway to theirs.

There are three things that determine how fast you get your super. 1. Your intellect stat. 2. How many kills you get. Each kill add super energy. 3. Any gear or artifact perks that affect super energy. Skorri's doesn't do [i]anything[/i] until the person with artifact's super is fully charged. [i]Then[/i] it speeds up the rate that [i]others[/i] in the team get their supers. But only as long as that person refuses to [i]use[/i] that super. So what is bullshit is that Skorri's is this OP, game-breaking artifact with no trade offs. Because it isn't... and if your letting a team of people running then camp long enough to get their supers, it's your fault. Plus they gain no advantage unless there is someone with a fully charged super that they aren't using at all times. ...and the only advantage is that the other two get their super a bit faster.

You obviously don't play trials. You just can't rush any good team that are using skorii's. against bad teams it doesn't matter because they will get 5-0'ed and not even get their supers anyways. The problem with skorii's is against decent teams. They don't camp like headless chickens, they know what they are doing. Obviously it is still possible to kill them but it's not like you can run up to them every round and expect to wipe them. A good team will know how to set up to punish anyone who pushes them, and the artifact just makes it worse. And as for not using your super, you want need it till the end of the round when you push the point and by then the other two will already have their supers and you can recharge yours the next round. I play a lot of trials, and I've done almost everything there is to do; from triple bubble titans to this artifact to no land only to grenade/melee only. And I can tell you from experience that camping with skorii's [b]when you are a good team[/b] is almost impossible to counter.

Then your problem isn't Skorri's. It's that you can't handle a good team who is determined to camp as a strategy. You think people only do that in Trials?

You are one of the biggest idiots I have seen on this app. You have your own deluded ideas without any personal experience to back them up. I don't usually throw my stats around but I'm considered a "top trials player" and I've put more time in to trials than almost anyone in this game. (I think I have like 7,000 games played or something like that) In these games I've seen a lot of things and I am telling you, though you can obviously not comprehend it, that skorrii's is a broken artifact in trials and is almost impossible to counter [b]when playing other good teams[/b] which means other "top trials players". Not that the lighthouse is a big deal, but I've been there over 150 times every way possible, and carried many more to the lighthouse. Skorrii's by far makes these runs easier (though much slower) and from personal experience, when in a stacked team there is no counter.

No. I'm just the guy who is [i]-blam!-ing tired[/i] of having this game dictated to us by whiny Trials players. Who insist that [i]everything[/i] that improves or diversifies PVE play has to get broken because of Trials and it win-at-any-cost culture. I'm tired of everyone else in this game being forced to adapt and have their play experience damaged because Trials players refuse to do so. Well now it's time for you to adapt. Thirty years ago college basketball had a problem. Smaller faster teams were resorting to what became known as The Four Corners offense. An approach to play whose sole purpose was to spread out and slow down the half court game to offset the advantage that big teams had inside....and it worked. Many big teams struggled to win when they were forced to play "small ball". Others adapted and still won. The NCAA finally had to act because the game's were about as interesting to watch as drying paint. But they were wise enough to realize that The Four Corners was meeting a legitimate need. Solution? It wasn't banning The Four Corners but addressing the need of small teams who were skilled at ball/handling to compete with big power teams. So the NCAA instituted both the modern shot-clock AND the three-point shot. Now's the time for Trials to similarly evolve and solve its own problems, rather than just [i]breaking[/i] the rest of the game.

Do you see anyone complaining about Skorris in PvE? PvE players get the short end of the stick a lot when nerfs make their rounds because Bungie is too stupid to separate the two modes. (Such as the sniper damage nerf that took away the ability to OHK light-eater knights in KF) I agree with you completely that this is stupid, but on the other hand, you're a PvE player who wants to dictate changes to the PvP community. (to be fair, call it karma if you must) Keep the two game modes separate. Skorris should without a doubt keep their power in PvE but they do need to really be looked at in PvP, namely 3s. That's what I've been saying.

And being "looked at" means that it's time for Trials itself to evolve. The NCAA was smart enough to make lasting improvement to basketball by addressing the competitive imbalance that The Four Corners was targeting, rather than just banning Four Corners. Address the imbalance (skill, advantage to passiv play styles) that Skorri's is trying to address or leverage and the need to use it disappears. But I'm still pissed that Firebolts got broken, and Trial players are now campaigning to get Thunderstrike broken as well.

Define "evolve".

My referencing The Four Corners was not random. The Four Corners emerged to fill a competitive imbalance in college basketball at the time. The lack of a three point shot, and the legality of zone defenses allowed elite teams to just stack themselves with big players and the collapse under the basket. Leaving smaller, quicker teams with fewer and fewer options. Go inside? Get hammered and get your shots blocked. Zone defenses neutralized your agility and ball movement advantages. Posting up and taking long range shots just played into the hand of this "big ball" strategy. Four Corners worked because it forced those big teams to come out from under the basket and play a style of ball that demanded agility and good ball-handling. IOW, "small ball." It worked because many big teams simply couldn't play that way. The NCAA solved the problem by preventing small teams from slowing down play, but also forcing big teams to come out and cover the whole floor ( three point shot.) Trials has been struggling with the same problem. The lack of any real skill matching leaves teams with the problem of how to beat teams with an overwhelming advantage in gun skill. So Trials is constantly trying to combat strategies that revolve neutralizing that gun skill by passive, campy play...and then turning the game into something that isn't really a gunfight when it's time to fight for the control point. Bungies solution is to keep breaking the strategies while not addressing the problems that the strategies are trying to solve. So it turns into a game of Whack-a-mole. Knock down one, the next one quickly emerges to replace it. Nothing changes except the rest of the game winds up being collateral damage. It's time for Trials to become what it should have been from the start. Skirmish or some objective-based game instead of elimination so passive players aren't handed such a huge advantage. Then address the skill mismatches by going to a ranked-and-tiered MM system. Divide teams into Diamond down to Bronze, and you can only play with people of your own skill level ( no carries). Then have people play Trials as they normally would, but are matched against people of the same tier for THE ENTIRE CARD. But you have seperate and distinct loot streams for each tier. You win, and you get the rewards assigned to your competitive flight. Go flawless you go to the Lighthouse and get the best gear reserved for YOUR FLIGHT. That way low skill players have a reason to show up and play. They have a chance to experience success at lower tiers and aren't just used as cannon fodder. Go flawless, and that character is done for the week, but earns the chance to compete in the next higher flight. The best players compete for the most prestigious gear in the game, but they also have to dominate the games best players to get it. See someone in a full set of Diamond level gear and flawless ornaments? You are in the presence of a certifiable BAD ASS. And the whole community should now it. This way you get an event that gives the exclusivity at the highest levels, but in an environment that is fair and competitively balanced. You get the win-win of being inclusive at the lower levels, while also, truly, identifying the game's best players at the highest. That's what I mean by "evolve" and Trials "solving its own problems".

And the NCAA was still forced to do something about "small ball", because it really slowed down the game. They gave it a place in the competitive front, but also prevented it from being used to draw games out to ultra-long proportions. Now, the obvious comparison here is camping. Camping in Trials can work if you're going up against muffins who can't shoot straight and have no map awareness. However, if you're going up against people who can adapt and are marginally decent, those campers will be forced to come up due to Trials' version of a shot clock. (capture point) Skorri doesn't fit in this example. What it essentially does, in the terms of the example given is give the team camping and running out the shot clock more points the longer the clock runs. So, when standing at the 3-point line with the ball, they get 5 points if they just sit there for half the clock. Even if you were to try to apply Skorri to this example by saying that weaker teams are trying to adapt to have a chance, you're ignoring that it takes little skill to huddle together and charge a super. Four Corners took skill. It slowed down the game, but it wasn't a magic wand to give weaker, less-skilled teams wins. They still had to be skilled; albeit in different areas than their opponents. And that's what adapting should mean to you in PvP. If you go up against someone running TLW and a shotgun (in other words, absolutely no range) then your best bet is to force him to the long sight ranges on the map where you can down him with a scout or sniper. If you go up against someone with a scout and a sniper, then your best bet is to push in with a fusion or a shotgun. If they're running TLW-sniper, you've gotta pick your engagements and stay to the middle ranges where they're a little squishy. That's what adapting is. It's not using a cheesy artifact to eliminate having to use any gun skill whatsoever. Bungie's solution is to, for some reason, nerf PvE along with PvP when they do their weapon tunings. Your whack-a-mole example would be accurate to describe the meta and how people constantly whine about it (something else becomes "OP" after an inevitable nerf) but not necessarily the issue at hand. Skorri isn't the meta in a conventional sense. What replaces Skorri if it does get nerfed? People might try to find another cheesy ways to beat better teams but at least they'll have to use their own skill and actually use their brains rather than have Bungie hand them a cheese straight out of the box. I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to tiered matchmaking, but it has several flaws. (No pun intended.) Think about it: in top-tier sports where the skill gap between last and first isn't very high, how many teams out of the whole league can string together a stretch where they go 7-1? (the required record to go flawless with boons) Maybe it isn't an ridiculous rarity, but I can guarantee you it's smaller than the percentage of flawless runs we have already. That's the problem with Trials: it's based on pubstomping. For every game I go up against sweats and get destroyed, I also go up against a team that [b]we[/b] steamroll. Once again, I'm only at about 1.1K Elo. Not a ultra-skilled sweat-hard. Now, only 4 brackets would make it not as hard, but there's also one more problem, and an example can once more be drawn from sports: there's always the teams at the top and the teams at the bottom. For those guys that will go flawless, there will be the guys that still fail to register a single win. I myself sit near the top of the Bronze bracket and most of the bronze-level teams we play are anywhere from competitive games that we may or may not win to complete blow-outs in our favor. If SBMM was implemented in Trials, flawless runs would become pretty easy for me, but as soon as I inevitably jump up to Silver, I'd instantly transform into that guy getting pubstomped and get sent back down to Bronze within a couple games. Trials does have a problem in being inclusive for the casuals. There's 3 achievements to reach: armor, weapon so, and lighthouse, none of which are easily attainable for the average casual. Bounties were nice but they only give you Y2 shit and aren't even max light. Just put bounties back up to max light and the casuals will come. As far as keeping the elite from playing the casuals without marring the achievement of going flawless, Trials is a loss and was at its inception.

I was about to say that you'd missed the point....until I got down to the second-to-last paragraph. YES!!! The problem isn't that Skorri's is OP, or that its somehow "broken". THE PROBLEM IS THAT TRIALS OF OSIRIS IS ITSELF A BROKEN-AND-FLAWED COMPETITION. One that was poorly conceived, and poorly-designed from the ground-up. One that is---as you said----dependant upon lower-skilled players being served up to higher-skilled players to get stomped. But the problem is---as I stated----eventually those lower-skilled players WITHDRAW their support for the event. Cause it takes a special kind of brave (or stupid) to show up on-time EVERY WEEK for an ass-whippin'. So as the lower skilled players stop showing up to play...the player pool gets more and more distilled...and the concentration of high-skilled players greater and greater. Which has lead to the very problems that we're talking about...as people have to resort to cheaper and cheaper (if not frankly cheating) tactics...in order to gain some sort of competitive edge. ...and that doesn't even factor in the lower-skilled players who are acting out their resentment by actively trying to undermine Trials by getting carried (paid or otherwise), or resorting to outright network manipulation and cheating. Trials---as it currently stands----is a good idea...in THEORY. But what you're seeing is the predictable (and predicted by me) outcome of dumping a competition like this into a community in the real world. Winner-take-all competitions. Especially one that is DESIGNED around a lack of skill-matching and serving people up to get stomped....has a toxic and corrosive effect on a community. ...and its time Bungie stops its policy of BREAKING the rest of the game in an effort to wallpaper over Trial's problems. Trials....like The Division's "Dark Zone".....is a game-design failure.

The problem with the system we have now is that for some people, getting legit carried is their only option to land in the lighthouse and get the loot that wasn't really meant for them, but otherwise, it's like asking D-III teams in college football to find their way into the AP top 25. It simply doesn't happen. Especially with how few casuals play anymore. I'm a casual by nature when it comes to Trials. I LFG for bounty groups just because my stats aren't quite up to par and I don't feel like getting yelled at by someone who has confirmation bias because of it. But these bounty groups are ridiculously hard to find anymore. The amount of people playing Trials for fun has dwindled to microscopic amounts and Trials has turned into a big sweatfest. This is the big flaw of the system Trials sits in now. The other option here, as you said, is tiered matchmaking with tiered rewards. However, that has a vital flaw as well, which is different depending on how big the skill bracket is. If they're too big, teams at the top of their bracket will still stomp over the teams near the bottom anyways. If they're too small, then going 7-1 becomes even more of an ordeal than it is now. These problems overlap and there's unfortunately not a happy medium. I really just play Trials for fun because there's not anything really engaging for me any more. Call me stupid (stupid is probably the case haha) but I am one of the few who does show up every week to get his ass handed to him on a platter. But at least it's fresh. And though it sucks to get 5-0'd, it's kinda cool to see how a great team plays. It sucks how few casuals there are left in this game though.

College sports skill match. That D-IIII isn't asked to play against Big Ten or SEC teams....or get out of college football. The play other D-III teams for their own championship. IOW, it is a ranked and tiered system. Northwestern and Vanderbilt would beat the snot out of D-III football teams. But both are mediocre D-I teams, playing in two of that division's strongest conferences. So they either need to get good enough to win at their tier, or accept their place in the rankings as a reflection of their skill level.

No, I agree (forgive me for my bad example lol); tiered matchmaking exists in all sports from professional to Thursday night after-work leagues. If you win your beer league championship, you don't get to lift the Stanley Cup over your head. If you win your district championship in high school baseball, you're not getting the opportunity to spray champagne wildly in the locker room with your teammates and the World Series trophy. The problem is that it doesn't fit in Trials. Its construction (the pinnacle of playing Trials requires a 7-1 stretch which only a sparing few at the top of their bracket will get) doesn't lend itself to a possible tiered matchmaking system, since the brackets are either too big to prevent pubstomps from happening or too small to allow people to still go flawless. It doesn't help that the Trials playerbase isn't very big, either, even before it died off. Look at professional sports. You're guaranteed to see one team each year win the championship. That's not the case with Trials. Theoretically, not one person could achieve flawless one week. If the tiers in Trials were too tight, this might become the case some weeks. And then look back at college football. Remember those teams your favorite plays towards the beginning of the season? Whose name you don't recognize and whose play pales in comparison to your team's? They're still in division I. But they get stomped any way. There's the outcome if the tiers were too wide. As I said, the two flaws overlap. There's unfortunately no happy medium where there's not someone who's gonna get screwed over, whether that's someone constantly getting pubstomped at the bottom of his bracket or if it's everybody in the Trials playerbase who now can't go flawless.

[quote]Not true. More people play PvE in this game than play PvP each day. Skorri's doesn't do anything until the bearer [i]already has[/i] their super fully charged. By that time everyone else in the game is going to have theirs, or be close if people are camping. ...and if you can't figure out how to deal with the camping.....[/quote] But what is there left in PvE, really? Strike scoring was a cool quick little addition but that'll get old real soon. The nightfall is still pretty stale. The raid is the only quality piece of endgame PvE there is and TBH, I got my one HM completion done and said "screw it" to WoTM. As far as Skorri's go, if you're going up against 3 good snipers who sit in their spawn on an open, long-range map like Widow's Court, yes, they can be very cheesy. As I said, it hasn't been bad on Anomaly since it's a really cramped map with not a whole lot of long sight lines from spawn. But Widow's Court a couple weeks ago was awful. And I'm not complaining about camping. If they want to sit on their spawn and hardscope up a hallway the entire game then they can be my guest. Skorri promotes camping, but also forces someone to push in to stop them cheesing their way to supers. They get super energy and a lot of it just from sitting there doing nothing. This isn't skill. This is cheesing the game.

I'm sorry you feel that way...but you are only speaking for yourself. About half this community are players who came to this game from MMOs or Action-RPG backgrounds. I'm a former PC gamer. So I'm used to forming a long term relationship with a game and have no need to resort to PvP to stave off boredom. As for your scenario, either learn how to counter-snipe or learn how to flank. Your problem isn't Skorri's. It that your own play is too unidimensional. If I'm doing MY job properly, it just doesn't matter how you choose to play. Your still going to lose. There is a counter to people trying to play that way and it isn't nerfing an artifact. Skorri's doesn't do a damn thing until some already has they're super fully charged.

EDIT: Forgive me for the stat check but you've played a grand total of 8 games in Trials across all your characters. (And you have very little time spent in 3s altogether) If you have some secondary account that isn't linked, my apologies, but I consider that unlikely given the amount of time on your linked account. I'm talking about Skorri when it comes to Trials (though 3s in general are applicable) and if you want me to take credibility in what you say it'd be helpful if you played Trials in the last 6 months. I'm not speaking for myself. I've heard people criticizing this artifact and I've heard a lot of them. Also, I came here from an MMO background as well, including a long period on game purely centered around mindless grinding and repetition, more so even than Destiny. Doesn't mean that PvE isn't pretty stale right now. PvP isn't much better at this point, but at least I'm not doing the same exact thing over and over. Going up against real people is not very effective but good enough at simulating non-static gameplay. My own play is unidimensional? How do you say that when you've never seen me play? I can adjust to people using shotguns, snipers, or even fusions. I'm hard on keeping shotguns where they're at since there's a lot of counter play to it, even though I haven't touched a shotty myself in months. I'm good with a fusion if I'm going up against shotguns and I'm still pretty good with snipers. I can adjust my play style if we're constantly getting rushed, or if we're getting hardscoped from across the map. I can pressure into Skorri campers and may or may not die, but unless they're complete muffins who can't shoot straight, that's a big risk I'm taking. You see, the problem for me is that there's just so little gunplay left in this PvP, why would taking more of that away be a good idea? I don't necessarily mind super-chaining. After all, that does take more than a little effort. But Skorri's doesn't. All you have to do is huddle back in your spawn and let your supers grow. And lastly, as I said in my last post, I am totally aware that Skorri doesn't work without a charged super. My problem isn't with people getting their supers in the first round of Trials. My problem is with the endless stream of supers that happens after one guy gets his. It's not gun-skill. It's not gunplay. It's cheesy and does not belong in what should be a competitive game mode.

Then MAKE THEM STOP USING IT BY BEATING THEM. You don't think people fall back into corners and camp in other game modes? You don't think other people don't find their tactics of team shooting or hard scoping the avenues of approach to be cheap and cheesy? Well they do. But some of us don't waste time complaining about it. In a competitive environment---especially one that is winner-take-all and makes no effort to skill match like Trials--- people are going to do [i]whatever the rules allow[/i] in an effort to win. Don't like it? Simple BEAT THEM AT IT. Make the strategy unrewarding and they'll stop using it. Skorri's doesn't have a damn thing to do with any of this. Trials was a campy snipfest before, and will be one long after Bungie [i]caves[/i] to the pressure for a nerf like they always do. With the games PVE players---as always---the ones who get screwed.

Camping doesn't work well in 6s, which is why I was calling out your lack of playtime in trials and 3s in general. 6s are much more chaotic and with the changes to sniper flinch in the last weapon tuning, continual spawn flipping (except in rift which is a cheesy as hell game mode anyways), and the lack of map space on most maps, Skorri is pretty crap compared to Jolder, Silimar, or even Gheleon. Additionally, solo-queueing is very common in 6s (once again, with the exception of rift) so it's not like you can say to your teammate "Hey, let's camp back here". In 3s, there's lots more map space per person, it's slower and focuses more on 1v1 battles, and spawn flips don't happen as often. (or at all in Elim) Solo-queueing in 3s is not as common and it can actually be literal hell at times to go into Skirmish or normal Elimination without a fireteam. In a competitive environment, I don't fault people at all for using whatever is the best available option. I consider it cheesy, but I'm not under any inclination whatsoever to send them hate mail or threaten them to stop. I'm not like that in any way. No, the ball is in Bungie's field. A competitive environment should not have major cheese to it. (as I believe Skorris add) Just because it exists doesn't mean it belongs. As I said, the amount of gunplay in this game in PvP is at an all-time low. Why on earth would you want to make that worse? [quote]Don't like it? Simple BEAT THEM AT IT. Make the strategy unrewarding and they'll stop using it.[/quote] You see, this is why I brought up your lack of experience in 3s. It isn't this simple. One does not simply "make the strategy unrewarding", unless you have some brilliant idea otherwise. [quote]Skorri's doesn't have a damn thing to do with any of this. Trials was a campy snipfest before, and will be one long after Bungie [i]caves[/i] to the pressure for a nerf like they always do.[/quote] Camping without Skorri and camping with Skorri are two different things. Without Skorri, you can engage in long-range sniper duels or simply have both teams sit at their spawn until capture point appears and everyone's like "Oh, shit, better get up there". There's nothing really detrimental to gameplay there. Sure, each match takes an hour, but when we're talking about gameplay and gunplay, there's little adverse effect. Now, with Skorris, one team just has to sit in their spawn and the other one has to blindly push in or risk facing a steady stream of supers after round 3 or 4. If both teams simply camp the entire round with Skorris, then all the gameplay that happens after round 3 or 4 is super after super after super after super. That's not good for Trials. That's not competitive gameplay. I'm not going to shit on someone for using this tactic, but it's not good for Trials, and that's what it boils down to.

ROFLMAO. Thanks for the laugh. Come back when you decide to get your nose out of the air, and your head out of your ass. Then we can have a serious discussion about this game. Until Trials has ranked-and-tiered play. Don't insult my intelligence by using Trials and competitive in the same paragraph. Never mind in the same sentence.

I'm not putting my nose in the air. I'm simply saying that unless you actually have ample experience of playing 3s against Skorri-campers (which you clearly do not) then you can't exactly tell me that I'm not doing enough to counter it. I think [b]you[/b] need to get your nose out of the air. Mine is completely level. (Btw, I'll hold a moment of silence for your intelligence tomorrow morning, don't worry)

No I just haven four decades of competitive experience in a broad range of endeavors. Which makes it easy to recognize the difference between real competitive advantage and simple excuse making. Bitching about Skorris clearly falls into the latter. Shut up and adapt.