This is a long one. Basically this is a dissection of the ideas present in Halo CE and the search for their place in Halo Reach. This thread will take much knowledge of the Halo Trilogy and the current unanimous opinions of the Halo Community.
[quote][b]WEAPONS[/b][/quote]
[b][u]Halo: Combat Evovled[/u][/b]
Weapons in Halo CE were far more limited than in previous series. But many of you know they were powerful, accurate and first and foremost unique to each other. Each weapon had its own place in the game, and its own nuances that characterized it:
- Assault Rifle: health eater, blinds enemies, fastest melee.
- Pistol: Headshot, mid range, TSK.
- Plasma Pistol: Freeze, charged bolt, rapid fire.
- Plasma Rifle: Fast firing, freeze, shield remover/group mop-up.
- Needler: Homing, Supercombine, bypasses shields.
Looking at these weapons, they all have their own place in the sandbox. But if you notice, the heavy intricacies and differences between them make them extremely difficult to pit against one another. Each one would have a clear advantage over several of the other weapons depending on situation.
This is a result of arbitrary balance. The weapons worked well, no doubt, but considering the quickly built multiplayer experience and the over-dominance of the Pistol in the game you can assume much of this chemistry was by chance. All the weapons performed identical to their campaign counterparts (doctored MP experiences usually do not share this quality) which is indicative of a campaign, not multiplayer, focus.
[b][u]Halo: Reach[/u][/b]
Halo Reach is very similar in this aspect. Looking back on Halo 2, many of the weapons were given race based counterparts. The Pistol became the BR/Carbine, the Assault rifle became SMG/PR/Brute PR, the Sniper became Sniper/Beam Rifle and the Shotgun became Shotgun/Sword.
With that also came the removal of many of the initial unique qualities of the weapons in the first game. This small things are essential to the chemistry of Halo. The biggest one being Plasma Freeze.
Plasma weapons were deadly in Halo CE due to their ability to ambush. They punished enemies who didn't check their backs and rewarded you with the kill for sneaking up on them. Covenant weaponry was tactical and situational while human weapons were more broad and flexible.
This contrast is what defined both sides and gave each weapon its unique quality. Halo 2 destroyed this, and Halo 3 carried it further.
But our interest isn't either of these games, but Halo: Reach and how it has corrected this mistake. Halo: Reach has taken a page out of Combat Evolved's book and literally embedded it into the new weapons' philosophy. Even with their counterparts.
- DMR: Pistol counterpart, slow ROF, mid-long range
Pistol: Pistol successor, high ROF, short to mid range
Assault Rifle: eats health, quick melee
Plasma Repeater: PR successor, no clip, degrading ROF, increasing accuracy, freezes Sprint.
Plasma Pistol: eats shields, medium ROF, EMP
Needler: super combine, homing
Plasma Launcher: Laser counterpart, charging/homing explosives, tracks players
Needle Rifle: Fast ROF, super accurate, automatic, supercombine
Looking at these weapons, they all have their nuances, where Halo 2/Halo 3's weapons had minimal to none at all. These small nuances make each weapon its own and give them all purpose and situational advantages. This is the chemistry that Halo needs, and is exactly why the new weapon set in Reach reflects far more of CE's original gameplay than any Halo before it.
[quote][b]BLOOM[/b][/quote]
[b][u]Halo: Combat Evolved[/u][/b]
Yes, it existed in CE although not in the same fashion. Bloom in Halo CE literally had an on/off switch in a sense. The key was semi-auto fire. This literally turned off bloom. It is definitely an interesting way to do it, but also an obvious conclusion to make for any player. So obvious, that most people have forgotten the Pistol could even be fired full automatic.
Even so, there were still benefits to full auto as oppose to semi on most weapons that used the feature: ROF or Rate of Fire. The Pistol, from what I have observed, can fire faster when held down. The limit is actually set a bit higher on a semi-auto player so they actually have to wait longer between shots than someone who fires fully automatic.
The same is obvious for the Assault Rifle. Halo 2 was the first game to completely remove Bloom from their primary pinpoint weapon and this continued on till Reach. To this day the only "non-power weapons" which did not succomb to some sort of bloom are the BR, Carbine and Plasma Pistol. All Pistols and AR-like guns had some form of bloom in the entire Halo Trilogy.
[b][u]Halo: Reach[/u][/b]
So, why does Reach's seem so different? Specifically:
- Its visual
- Its more apparent in gameplay
- There is no off switch
These three things bring about the seemingly overbearing arm of the bloom in Reach. Especially the fact that there is no off switch. All weapons deal with it all the time and as a result you can't ignore it anymore.
[quote][b]DAMAGE[/b][/quote]
[b][u]Halo: Combat Evolved[/u][/b]
More. Damage in CE was far higher. On top of that, shields regenerated faster. Players wonder why Halo's kill times have slowed down. Well that's easy to answer: to give players a chance.
Well, Bungie has said that and it really doesn't mean anything. I'll explain.
In Halo CE many weapons, if you didn't fire first, would kill you. You had little chance to react (especially with grenades in the mix) to practically anything and many weapons even prevented you from doing so (plasma weapons, sticky grenades and the needler).
Even though kill times were longer than most games, the outcome was pretty much the same. Weapon power ensured that regardless of what you do, if you aren't prepared for an enemy in the slightest, you would lose no matter what.
The Pistol was the only exception to the rule, and thats because it could kill faster than anything else could, and at any range. But then again, that is exactly why it was overpowered. Its quick kills and enormous flexibility made it the go-to weapon.
But, like any weapon, it is only a matter of time before you figure out the right way to use it. Once that happens, the game really became cake. Most weapons didn't stand much of a chance unless in a small space or in an ambush. The only redeeming factors was that killing a player with another weapon took literally no brain while the Pistol took a bit of work.
But the fact it could dominate was reason enough to nerf it in the second game. And many players agreed.
[b][u]Halo: Reach[/u][/b]
Damage is less in Reach, we all know this. But that has to do with the primary differences in Reach's gameplay to Halo CE, specifically shield and health mechanics alongside movement speed and aim assistance/bullet magnetism.
Players move slower, recharge shields slower, take longer to grab health and have hitscan weaponry.
But the biggest reason for longer kill times has already been stated: inability to react. Bungie has been trying to get this game into a different realm. They have been pushing back kill times to keep player ability to tactically defeat other players through map knowledge, weapon knowledge and awareness of the situation.
In Halo CE, if someone got the drop on you, you died. In Halo Reach, if someone gets the drop on you they better know what they're doing or they aren't going to succeed. The whole game prioritizes the players ability to react to a situation and that in itself is far more skillful than who shot first or who got unlucky with their spawn/enemy spawn.
This is THE core difference from the original game and it is a necessary one.
[quote][b]MELEE[/b][/quote]
[b][u]Halo: Combat Evolved[/u][/b]
Melee in CE was nearly nonexistent. The double melee was useful in rare situations but a majority of the time you wouldn't use it. This had to do with the already sufficient killing ability of the weapons and the fact hitting was just unbelievably difficult.
Halo 2/3 brought in a good solution but the solution was exaggerated. What we ended up seeing was players lowering shields and then smacking each other for the win. This had much to do with Halo 3's reduced weapon damage AGAIN from Halo 2. Halo 2 saw little of this although beatdowns were far easier to perform.
[b][u]Halo: Reach[/u][/b]
In Reach, a player can no longer rely on melee in such a fashion. Memorizing the exact number of AR shots needed to be able to melee someone to death is no longer pivotal. It is all about who's shields are down or not.
The whole reason for this is to make melee less rewarding while not nerfing it to the point of uselessness like in CE. Of course, we all know about double melee being anything but nerfed.
However, Bungie has stated this will be fixed. I also attribute this to the Sprint armor ability.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] UL7IM4 G33K [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] BlitzBladeX I also understand why Bungie has opted to lower gameplay speed in order to promote teamwork and strategy more than individual "twitch" reflex skills, but there is a limit to how much you want to slow things down.[/quote] Agreed, which is why I feel Bungie is looking into some of the player traits. I really enjoyed Reach's overall pacing but that doesn't mean it was perfect. If players are speaking out about it there is more than likely something a bit off with it and I'm open to the changes Bungie implement and look forward to trying them out. I just hope that I'm happier with the final game unlike Halo 3 where the Beta was perfect.[/quote] I wouldn't say the Halo 3 Beta was perfect, but it was surely better than the final release... That being said, the Reach Beta seems like it was purposelly broken AND even dumbed down in certain areas so that we won't have another Halo 3 on our hands. Without a doubt, the final release will blow the Beta away, especially with the tweaks they've already mention. ;D
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This is a very nice, intelligent, and informative post save for the senseless rabbling in the latter pages. I feel that Reach is a step in a new direction. I'm not going to kiss ass... Not all of the changes they've implemented have been for the better but that's what they did for HCE. Leaps of faith, that's what most of them were. Regardless, thanks for the awesome post and I hope that people at least understand a bit more as to the reasoning behind some of Bungie's game-play changes.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] BlitzBladeX I also understand why Bungie has opted to lower gameplay speed in order to promote teamwork and strategy more than individual "twitch" reflex skills, but there is a limit to how much you want to slow things down.[/quote] Agreed, which is why I feel Bungie is looking into some of the player traits. I really enjoyed Reach's overall pacing but that doesn't mean it was perfect. If players are speaking out about it there is more than likely something a bit off with it and I'm open to the changes Bungie implement and look forward to trying them out. I just hope that I'm happier with the final game unlike Halo 3 where the Beta was perfect.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] E3R0R I myself was a major Halo: CE junkie playing anytime I could get my paws on a controller, and I still play it consistently on the computer (honestly I think that they should bring Halo:CE to the XBL marketplace, similar to what they did with Perfect Dark).[/quote] There is a supposed rumor of 343 Studios announcing something about a Halo game fro XBLA, so we'll see.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Methew *Pulls out a monocle and tobacco pipe.* I concur. *Dons the monocle and starts puffing on the pipe as soap bubbles float out the end.*[/quote]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] warrior527 Logic in these threads is a luxury.[/quote] No, it more has to do with logic and its love-hate with internet society.
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Logic in these threads is a luxury.
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Wow you really spent some time on this and provided a very interesting analysis. I completely agree with all of what you said. I myself was a major Halo: CE junkie playing anytime I could get my paws on a controller, and I still play it consistently on the computer (honestly I think that they should bring Halo:CE to the XBL marketplace, similar to what they did with Perfect Dark). Halo 2 is when the game really started becoming competitive, and also when a lot of people joined in and started to play the Halo franchise, I hypothesize that because of that people relate Halo 2 too the "original" and that is why people are getting upset saying this isn't a Halo game. But personally I found Halo 2 and Halo 3 to have changed too much from Halo:CE and that saddened me. But Halo Reach is just breath of fresh air. Finally the game I was waiting for! [u]This is the game Halo 2 should have been![/u] Your post is the first really intelligent post that I have seen in a [u]long[/u] time. Thank you research, analysis, and for sharing with the community here in the forums of Bungie.net. [Edited on 05.28.2010 8:16 AM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] thashiznit314 Go to your game history, click on a game, select carnage, hover the mouse over the players. It will show you the average kill and death distances[/quote] Interesting, but it proves nothing. Halo has always been a relatively close game in terms of distance. 15 meters is roughly 50ft, a fair distance if you ask me.
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Go to your game history, click on a game, select carnage, hover the mouse over the players. It will show you the average kill and death distances
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Got to stop that, keep assuming someone will post before me, lol. [Edited on 05.27.2010 11:21 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] thashiznit314 The mid range weapons aren't balanced. Go through your game history, go to carnage and look at the average kill distance of all the players. Nearly every players average kill distance will be less than 15 meters.[/quote] Um, last I knew Halo never told you how far your kill was from and Halo Reach doesn't have the map overlays at the moment. I don't know how you came to this conclusion. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] boroty_xx The video you watched wasn't the correct video, its from the MLG Atlanta finals from 2004. It ends 50-49 as well but the Ogres lose. The video I attempted to show you was played when the game had been played for a much longer period of time and was understood much better.[/quote] Three years is plenty of time for players to know the game pretty fluently. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] boroty_xx Here's one of some nice gp from Ogre 1. Nice doubles, killing sprees (close to a running riot at one point) and even a pretty sick triple http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZu1tFC_Hd4[/quote] By the 40 second mark players have stopped spamming and started camping. Most the action slows down to a crawl at that point. I also notice what I remember to be the backpack reload, which means most of this "fast" gameplay is the result of reload glitching to make you reload faster hastening gameplay and gunfights. I wouldn't consider this glitch part of Halo, since it is unintended. Just like much of the double melee I see in competitive Halo CE games. What people call fast gameplay is more often than not glitched gameplay, just like in Halo 2 and Halo 3. [Edited on 05.27.2010 11:21 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SweetTRIX [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] NERF THE FRAGS [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SweetTRIX but the core mechanics, the need for multidimensional gameplay, and intelligent use of map geometry, it is very similar to CE [/quote] What are you talking about? Intelligent use of map geometry? I think you meant the need to not have to think at all because you can just run away or armour lock every time some gets the jump on you. Or if you dont have those AAs you can just wait because the kill times are so long your teammates can run around the map three times and then help you before you die. This game plays NOTHING like HCE. HCE was quick, the pace was electrifying. This game is sooooooooooooooooooooooooo slow. I get what the OP was saying about kill times and how making them longer adds some depth and negates the hide and seek style of COD like games but now the kill times have gotten to the point where nothing matters. No matter what dumbass mistake you make you can get away and thats just makes the pace of the game ridiculously slow.[/quote] Either you play with some serious simpletons, or you really just are terrible at the game, and I never use that as a counter arguement. You are heavily exaggerating your point, yes Reach has slower kill times and movement capabilities, but they tie into eachother and still make for fast paced gameplay. Where you and others seem to get lost is that face-paced gameplay is not necessarily a result of fast movement speed.[/quote] Covy Slayer. Slower kill times than Spartan Vs Spartan, but increased player movement abilities. Easily one of the fastest paced gametypes available in the Beta, and one of the more well received. Yes, having the drop on someone shouldn't entirely prevent them from being able to outplay you, I understand that. I also understand why Bungie has opted to lower gameplay speed in order to promote teamwork and strategy more than individual "twitch" reflex skills, but there is a limit to how much you want to slow things down.
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The video you watched wasn't the correct video, its from the MLG Atlanta finals from 2004. It ends 50-49 as well but the Ogres lose. The video I attempted to show you was played when the game had been played for a much longer period of time and was understood much better. Multi kills and killing sprees abound. I can also link you to some Toxin gameplay where he gets at least two killtactulars in one game. That was EXTREMELY hard to do in Halo 1. Here's one of some nice gp from Ogre 1. Nice doubles, killing sprees (close to a running riot at one point) and even a pretty sick triple http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZu1tFC_Hd4
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] UNKNOWN iXi Heck dude, just compare the video I just gave you with this - [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_BYeEGjtMY&feature=fvw]Halo 3 competitive match[/url] [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpbnMUXSUj0]And here's a video in competitive Halo Reach.[/url] Now seriously, YOU tell me which is much faster? ... As Halo progressed, the battles became more drawn out and the overall experience became more and more sluggish... For real man, you know nothing about how Halo 1 was truly played and I'm not insulting you, I'm merely enlightening you (as arrogant as that may sound).[/quote] You just compared a MLG match (a game against two very popular, well known, and skillful teams at that) to a game of regular matchmaking with commentary added by an MLG pro. Way to go. [Edited on 05.27.2010 6:17 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] thashiznit314 The mid range weapons aren't balanced. Go through your game history, go to carnage and look at the average kill distance of all the players. Nearly every players average kill distance will be less than 15 meters. Just because you have alot of kills with the ranged weapons doesn't mean those kills took place at mid-range Most of the combat in reach is forced into close range. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mava665 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] thashiznit314 [quote]Overall, the big thing that Reach promotes in map movement. The first thing I noticed when I played a game of Halo 3 was that the reason I was losing a game of FFA on Sandbox was because some noobs were camping on top of the bases, because the game promoted that. Reach promotes the opposite as shown above, and THAT is why it is a faster paced game-instead of promoting stagnant or minimal movement like Halo 3, it promotes and gives players reasons to move around the map more. Sooooo much better. I'd imagine the "PROZ" are going to be bad because now they can't spawn camp and win through map control and will still actually have to engage their opponent in more than 3 ways a minute through the match. (Sheds fake tear). [/quote] This has to be the stupidest thing I've ever read. They deserve to have an advantage, they have the high ground. Also its balanced by the fact that they are exposed, there's no cover on top of the bases. What FPS doesn't reward players who have the high ground? The reason halo 3 sucked in regards to map movement was because of piss poor default starting weapons. If everybody spawned with a BR, none of the problems you mentioned would exist. You deserve to die when moving through open areas with a close range weapon. You shouldn't be able to close in on someone picking you off at a distance and kill them with a close range weapon. That defeats the purpose of using mid range weapons. This is the main problem with abilities, they make mid-range weapons pretty much useless due to ease of escapes, while allowing close range weapons to close the distance and remove any advantage a mid range weapon should have over it.[/quote] .....have you even played Halo 3? Have you played Sandbox? You could have said "This is a bad example" (which looking back it kind of is, but I stand by my point. Which was that the maps being too open and poorly designed (Sandbox) led to a lack of movement and camping. Regardless of whether you think it or not, the bases on Sandbox were incredibly easy to camp on. Absolutely no skill to hold or get kills from. That's how I got Save this Film, and it was so damn easy. Oh, and "it's balanced because there's no cover on top of the bases?" ALL THEY HAVE TO DO IS BACK DOWN INTO THE COVER. IT'S NOT ROCKET SCIENCE TO PUSH THE LEFT STICK BACKWARDS. It wasn't balanced at all. Why to they deserve to get an advantage? Because the game spawned them there? Cause that is how people got up on them half the time. I agree with the point about crappy starting weapons. But the post about Medium Range weapons being weak is just bull -blam!-. I had a 3,644 kills in Standard. 1,277 were medium ranged weapons (and by that I mean Needle Rifle, DMR and Magnum). That's a third. There are 3 weapon ranges. So each should take up a third. They're not weak. You just think they're weak because for the first time in the series Medium Range isn't over powered and is balanced. If you're one of those guys who thinks that Medium Range should dominate everything, newsflash-that style got old after Halo 2. After everyone -blam!-ing about how much the BR was overpowered, Bungie FINALLY balanced the weapons. You mistake medium range weapons having to be used effectively for them being ineffective. Turns out Armor Abilities also doing something beneficial I didn't recognize. Armor Abilities now lessen medium range dominance. And the rest of my points are still located above. [/quote][/quote] Uh. So. Most of the games were played on a really cramped map and a decent sized one. If you want to play at mid-range you can. If you don't you cannot. Honestly, the game has been mid-ranged centric for all 3 iterations. A focus on close range is fine. Just because the medium ranged weapons can be used effectively at close range doesn't mean they're unbalanced.
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The mid range weapons aren't balanced. Go through your game history, go to carnage and look at the average kill distance of all the players. Nearly every players average kill distance will be less than 15 meters. Just because you have alot of kills with the ranged weapons doesn't mean those kills took place at mid-range Most of the combat in reach is forced into close range. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Mava665 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] thashiznit314 [quote]Overall, the big thing that Reach promotes in map movement. The first thing I noticed when I played a game of Halo 3 was that the reason I was losing a game of FFA on Sandbox was because some noobs were camping on top of the bases, because the game promoted that. Reach promotes the opposite as shown above, and THAT is why it is a faster paced game-instead of promoting stagnant or minimal movement like Halo 3, it promotes and gives players reasons to move around the map more. Sooooo much better. I'd imagine the "PROZ" are going to be bad because now they can't spawn camp and win through map control and will still actually have to engage their opponent in more than 3 ways a minute through the match. (Sheds fake tear). [/quote] This has to be the stupidest thing I've ever read. They deserve to have an advantage, they have the high ground. Also its balanced by the fact that they are exposed, there's no cover on top of the bases. What FPS doesn't reward players who have the high ground? The reason halo 3 sucked in regards to map movement was because of piss poor default starting weapons. If everybody spawned with a BR, none of the problems you mentioned would exist. You deserve to die when moving through open areas with a close range weapon. You shouldn't be able to close in on someone picking you off at a distance and kill them with a close range weapon. That defeats the purpose of using mid range weapons. This is the main problem with abilities, they make mid-range weapons pretty much useless due to ease of escapes, while allowing close range weapons to close the distance and remove any advantage a mid range weapon should have over it.[/quote] .....have you even played Halo 3? Have you played Sandbox? You could have said "This is a bad example" (which looking back it kind of is, but I stand by my point. Which was that the maps being too open and poorly designed (Sandbox) led to a lack of movement and camping. Regardless of whether you think it or not, the bases on Sandbox were incredibly easy to camp on. Absolutely no skill to hold or get kills from. That's how I got Save this Film, and it was so damn easy. Oh, and "it's balanced because there's no cover on top of the bases?" ALL THEY HAVE TO DO IS BACK DOWN INTO THE COVER. IT'S NOT ROCKET SCIENCE TO PUSH THE LEFT STICK BACKWARDS. It wasn't balanced at all. Why to they deserve to get an advantage? Because the game spawned them there? Cause that is how people got up on them half the time. I agree with the point about crappy starting weapons. But the post about Medium Range weapons being weak is just bull -blam!-. I had a 3,644 kills in Standard. 1,277 were medium ranged weapons (and by that I mean Needle Rifle, DMR and Magnum). That's a third. There are 3 weapon ranges. So each should take up a third. They're not weak. You just think they're weak because for the first time in the series Medium Range isn't over powered and is balanced. If you're one of those guys who thinks that Medium Range should dominate everything, newsflash-that style got old after Halo 2. After everyone -blam!-ing about how much the BR was overpowered, Bungie FINALLY balanced the weapons. You mistake medium range weapons having to be used effectively for them being ineffective. Turns out Armor Abilities also doing something beneficial I didn't recognize. Armor Abilities now lessen medium range dominance. And the rest of my points are still located above. [/quote] [Edited on 05.27.2010 5:34 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] thashiznit314 [quote]Overall, the big thing that Reach promotes in map movement. The first thing I noticed when I played a game of Halo 3 was that the reason I was losing a game of FFA on Sandbox was because some noobs were camping on top of the bases, because the game promoted that. Reach promotes the opposite as shown above, and THAT is why it is a faster paced game-instead of promoting stagnant or minimal movement like Halo 3, it promotes and gives players reasons to move around the map more. Sooooo much better. I'd imagine the "PROZ" are going to be bad because now they can't spawn camp and win through map control and will still actually have to engage their opponent in more than 3 ways a minute through the match. (Sheds fake tear). [/quote] This has to be the stupidest thing I've ever read. They deserve to have an advantage, they have the high ground. Also its balanced by the fact that they are exposed, there's no cover on top of the bases. What FPS doesn't reward players who have the high ground? The reason halo 3 sucked in regards to map movement was because of piss poor default starting weapons. If everybody spawned with a BR, none of the problems you mentioned would exist. You deserve to die when moving through open areas with a close range weapon. You shouldn't be able to close in on someone picking you off at a distance and kill them with a close range weapon. That defeats the purpose of using mid range weapons. This is the main problem with abilities, they make mid-range weapons pretty much useless due to ease of escapes, while allowing close range weapons to close the distance and remove any advantage a mid range weapon should have over it.[/quote] .....have you even played Halo 3? Have you played Sandbox? You could have said "This is a bad example" (which looking back it kind of is, but I stand by my point. Which was that the maps being too open and poorly designed (Sandbox) led to a lack of movement and camping. Regardless of whether you think it or not, the bases on Sandbox were incredibly easy to camp on. Absolutely no skill to hold or get kills from. That's how I got Save this Film, and it was so damn easy. Oh, and "it's balanced because there's no cover on top of the bases?" ALL THEY HAVE TO DO IS BACK DOWN INTO THE COVER. IT'S NOT ROCKET SCIENCE TO PUSH THE LEFT STICK BACKWARDS. It wasn't balanced at all. Why to they deserve to get an advantage? Because the game spawned them there? Cause that is how people got up on them half the time. I agree with the point about crappy starting weapons. But the post about Medium Range weapons being weak is just bull -blam!-. I had a 3,644 kills in Standard. 1,277 were medium ranged weapons (and by that I mean Needle Rifle, DMR and Magnum). That's a third. There are 3 weapon ranges. So each should take up a third. They're not weak. You just think they're weak because for the first time in the series Medium Range isn't over powered and is balanced. If you're one of those guys who thinks that Medium Range should dominate everything, newsflash-that style got old after Halo 2. After everyone -blam!-ing about how much the BR was overpowered, Bungie FINALLY balanced the weapons. You mistake medium range weapons having to be used effectively for them being ineffective. Turns out Armor Abilities also doing something beneficial I didn't recognize. Armor Abilities now lessen medium range dominance. And the rest of my points are still located above.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] thashiznit314 This has to be the stupidest thing I've ever read. They deserve to have an advantage, they have the high ground. Also its balanced by the fact that they are exposed, there's no cover on top of the bases. What FPS doesn't reward players who have the high ground? The reason halo 3 sucked in regards to map movement was because of piss poor default starting weapons. If everybody spawned with a BR, none of the problems you mentioned would exist. You deserve to die when moving through open areas with a close range weapon. You shouldn't be able to close in on someone picking you off at a distance and kill them with a close range weapon. That defeats the purpose of using mid range weapons. This is the main problem with abilities, they make mid-range weapons pretty much useless due to ease of escapes, while allowing close range weapons to close the distance and remove any advantage a mid range weapon should have over it.[/quote] High ground in itself is cover. Grenades aren't as effective against the high ground, angle of attack from lower ground provides cover with seemingly nothing to hide behind. What you can hide behind is the ground itself. High ground, regardless of it being flat or not in the area, is always advantageous seeing as it has its own natural cover and diminishes enemy cover as well.
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[quote]Overall, the big thing that Reach promotes in map movement. The first thing I noticed when I played a game of Halo 3 was that the reason I was losing a game of FFA on Sandbox was because some noobs were camping on top of the bases, because the game promoted that. Reach promotes the opposite as shown above, and THAT is why it is a faster paced game-instead of promoting stagnant or minimal movement like Halo 3, it promotes and gives players reasons to move around the map more. Sooooo much better. I'd imagine the "PROZ" are going to be bad because now they can't spawn camp and win through map control and will still actually have to engage their opponent in more than 3 ways a minute through the match. (Sheds fake tear). [/quote] This has to be the stupidest thing I've ever read. They deserve to have an advantage, they have the high ground. Also its balanced by the fact that they are exposed, there's no cover on top of the bases. What FPS doesn't reward players who have the high ground? The reason halo 3 sucked in regards to map movement was because of piss poor default starting weapons. If everybody spawned with a BR, none of the problems you mentioned would exist. You deserve to die when moving through open areas with a close range weapon. You shouldn't be able to close in on someone picking you off at a distance and kill them with a close range weapon. That defeats the purpose of using mid range weapons. This is the main problem with abilities, they make mid-range weapons pretty much useless due to ease of escapes, while allowing close range weapons to close the distance and remove any advantage a mid range weapon should have over it.
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Very decent read, haven't encountered one in a while. Reach seems to have a very well balanced system and a good steady pace. What I have read so far in the thread it seems that people believe the game is to slow paced or weapons are not strong enough. If only all weapons (excluding specific power weapons for a reason) had they're power increased by 10%, it would make the pace seem fairly faster.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] UNKNOWN iXi [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] UL7IM4 G33K [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] UNKNOWN iXi lol Dude, you're just so incredibly hardheaded... I'm done, you're obviously too stuck in your favoritism. Just know that if you keep posting nonsense like this, I will be there to shed light on those too ignorant to realize that what you say is in most cases false and ironically enough, also ignorant.[/quote] I watched the video all the way through. I've played the game. You can call me ignorant but the video is there for everyone to see so why don't we leave it up to others to determine who is right? Declaring you've won when you have yet to make an effort to prove it is just poor practice.[/quote] Your "gripes" about Halo 1 was just poor design by Bungie. The things I'm talking about is how fluid and fast paced the game was... The game did NOT feel sluggish WHATSOEVER. There's a reason why Halo 1 is the most respected and beloved Halo of them all... So I'm sure you're incorrect.[/quote] I love Halo 1. But it's popularity is heavily based on nostalgia and the fact it was the first game. That being said, it's still by far the 2nd best game in the series, even though Halo 2 may have a few advantages over it. But G33K is right, it was a slow game. Long grenade fuses, lagging jumps, huge maps. It's not a bad thing, but just because it had a three shot kill weapon doesn't mean it was fast. Reach is by far the fastest in the series. I'll post my previous post again- Halo Reach has a much, much faster style of play than Halo 3. Halo 3 focused on camping an area and promoted very little map movement for many reasons. A-Off of most spawns all three of your methods of attack are close ranged-AR, Melee, and Grenade. The lack of a medium range starting weapon promoted stagnant map movement, as a players effectiveness would be limited to close range. This is fixed in Reach with the new Magnum. B-Most of the maps were very open. The Pit, every part of Snowbound besides the bottom, etc. This made map movement hard to accomplish. There needed to be more cover. This is fixed in Reach, as most of the maps have good amount of cover and our built better in general. C-Moving into an open space resulted in death. While you say that Armor Abilities slow down the game, they do the opposite, and allow people to attack aggressively and then use their armor ability to retreat or defend. The only ability this is not true for is Camo. Reach also improves upon movement in these ways: D-Armor Abilities allow fluid movement through spaces that in prior Halo games were more difficult to navigate. In Reach, you can Jetpack over ledges or stories in your way, or Sprint through open areas, or Camo sneakily into your opponents base. Each creates more movement (except for Armor Lock). E-Weapons are more balanced and all have longer ranges. This makes it nearly impossible to "BR-camp" like in H3 and pick off people because their close range weapons suck. Now the Plasma Pistol, Repeater, Needler, and AR can be used effectively at Mid-Range, making people using that part of the sandbox willing to move around the map. Overall, the big thing that Reach promotes in map movement. The first thing I noticed when I played a game of Halo 3 was that the reason I was losing a game of FFA on Sandbox was because some noobs were camping on top of the bases, because the game promoted that. Reach promotes the opposite as shown above, and THAT is why it is a faster paced game-instead of promoting stagnant or minimal movement like Halo 3, it promotes and gives players reasons to move around the map more. Sooooo much better. I'd imagine the "PROZ" are going to be bad because now they can't spawn camp and win through map control and will still actually have to engage their opponent in more than 3 ways a minute through the match. (Sheds fake tear).
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] UL7IM4 G33K [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] UNKNOWN iXi lol Dude, you're just so incredibly hardheaded... I'm done, you're obviously too stuck in your favoritism. Just know that if you keep posting nonsense like this, I will be there to shed light on those too ignorant to realize that what you say is in most cases false and ironically enough, also ignorant.[/quote] I watched the video all the way through. I've played the game. You can call me ignorant but the video is there for everyone to see so why don't we leave it up to others to determine who is right? Declaring you've won when you have yet to make an effort to prove it is just poor practice.[/quote] Your "gripes" about Halo 1 was just poor design by Bungie. The things I'm talking about is how fluid and fast paced the game was... The game did NOT feel sluggish WHATSOEVER. There's a reason why Halo 1 is the most respected and beloved Halo of them all... So I'm sure you're incorrect.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] UNKNOWN iXi lol Dude, you're just so incredibly hardheaded... I'm done, you're obviously too stuck in your favoritism. Just know that if you keep posting nonsense like this, I will be there to shed light on those too ignorant to realize that what you say is in most cases false and ironically enough, also ignorant.[/quote] I watched the video all the way through. I've played the game. You can call me ignorant but the video is there for everyone to see so why don't we leave it up to others to determine who is right? Declaring you've won when you have yet to make an effort to prove it is just poor practice.
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lol Dude, you're just so incredibly hardheaded... I'm done, you're obviously too stuck in your favoritism. Just know that if you keep posting nonsense like this, I will be there to shed light on those too ignorant to realize that what you say is in most cases false and ironically enough, also ignorant.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] UNKNOWN iXi [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dYn4I99OPA]I think this is it.[/url][/quote] - As I said, rarely anyone dies by grenades. At the amount of time I watched I think that it averaged one grenade kill every minute. - They do use melee a bit more than I recall. But if you notice, melees stop after the first minute of the game when spawns stop being chaotic. - One weapon to rule them all, everyone is spamming Pistols, bland, predictable gameplay in that regard. - People died no faster in that game than any other Halo game (deaths in amount of time past). Whats more, I have yet to hear more than one or two double kills three minutes in. - At around 1:30 there is a huge camping session which begins for most of the match. Players literally stop moving around the map unless a power weapon spawns. - TSKs aren't in the least bit consistent. More often than not they fire until the guy is dead. If TSK's were consistent, they would never fire a fourth shot as they do constantly. I don't see where I'm really wrong. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] UNKNOWN iXi Honestly ULTIMA, I think I'm done discussing Halo 1 with you. Clearly this is going to keep going around in circles, but the only true way to understand what I'm talking about is if you've experienced that game for yourself the way many others have. It's not a matter of playing with your buds and LANing, playing competitively and knowing the fundamentals and the ins/outs of the game I guess was my curse because no other Halo game ever lived up to the fluidity of Halo 1... sadly too, Reach, although better than Halo 3, is also heading down that road if they continue with this trend.[/quote] I agree the game was beyond solid, but pace isn't necessarily the defining part of that solid gameplay. It also attributes itself to being the only shooter of its kind at the time. It was completely unique and reiterations will have a hard time mimicking that feeling. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] UNKNOWN iXi PS - This video disproves every negative thing you've said about Halo 1. Halo 1 was a far superior, faster gameplay experience than any Halo game thereafter. This is not an opinion. This is fact. Just watch the animations from reloading to grenade throws, they're so incredibly fluid... Also in this video you can see that melees were indeed effective. On top of that, you can see how effective the nades are and how extremely deadly they are... Heck, at one point you can even see what I was talking about with the Plasma Rifle... [/quote] Yet it also proves my own points. What you talked about was only in the first minute or so of the game. After that, the game degraded to exactly what I described. Long swaths of inaction followed by quick bursts of killing. Grenades hardly got kills, melees rarely happened and everyone spammed the Pistol. I think after the initial melee fest it took over two minutes for the next melee to happen and another minute for the one after that. [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] UNKNOWN iXi Heck dude, just compare the video I just gave you with this - [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_BYeEGjtMY&feature=fvw]Halo 3 competitive match[/url] [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpbnMUXSUj0]And here's a video in competitive Halo Reach.[/url] Now seriously, YOU tell me which is much faster? ... As Halo progressed, the battles became more drawn out and the overall experience became more and more sluggish... For real man, you know nothing about how Halo 1 was truly played and I'm not insulting you, I'm merely enlightening you (as arrogant as that may sound).[/quote] Invalid. Comparing SEASONED gameplay to high ranking UNSEASONED gameplay is completely pointless. Which is the problem with most of your argument. Years of experience in a game vs. weeks.