[b]EDIT: Bungie have responded to some of the questions raised by myself and others via the BWU. This has raised further questions, so it's time to continue the conversation...[/b] https://www.bungie.net/en/Forums/Post/218186130?sort=0&page=0 Following a response to a fellow Guardian on this subject, I was asked to repeat the post as a separate thread. It's rather long winded, but summarises a portion of the communities frustration on this subject whilst also providing some thoughts, facts and background information with regards Destiny and matchmaking. [b][u]Destiny PvP Matchmaking[/u][/b] This is what has been said before on the subject by developers as well as what can be demonstrated by users experience (in particular for those with a Netduma router which visually shows the locations of all players in a game as well as the pings to those players). Destiny defines a 'skill' range FIRST and will search for acceptable connections within that skill range. However, an acceptable connection can be a 300-800ms ping from a UK player to someone in West Coast US - that is deemed as acceptable by Bungie whereas in other competitive FPS games anything above 50ms would be deemed high latency. The skill range will be relaxed if not enough players can be found in the initial search within an acceptable time frame. But a game will start with less than the full quota at the expense of using available players outside of the skill range. It will also favour local connections within that initial skill range (if they exist), but the important part is it does not look for local connections first and then try and find an lobby with evenly matched players, it's first filter is the skill range which immediately reduces the available players to connect to. [b][u]Destiny Netcode[/u][/b] Destiny operates @ 30 FPS with a tick rate of 10hz - far below the industry average (Overwatch uses 60hz and CS:GO up to 144hz to match with 144 Hz monitors) - that means the 'servers' update the game every 100ms / 3 frames. [b][u]Netcode + Matchmaking ...[/u][/b] The netcode / tick rate combined with high latency cross continent connections that Bungie deem acceptable is one of the major reasons why being shot through walls, SG's whiffing in CQB and trading kills is much more common place in Destiny than ANY other competitive FPS game. [b][u]SBMM and Issues[/u][/b] The type of matchmaking Destiny uses is a form of what is commonly terms Skill Based Matchmaking (SBMM) - looking for good connections within a skill range is a form of SBMM. This is less problematic in a) heavily populated playlists (think IB) and b) for people with average skill (larger portion of the population) and c) in geographical dense locations. For lower populated playlists and in particular higher skill players this means the following: - Longer queue times - Matches starting with less than full quota (8 for control and 4 in Rumble for example). - Higher latency matches (as there will be less local players in the initial skill range search) - Higher frustration as 'lag' is more central to the outcome of gun fights. - Very competitive matches (think a ranked playlist but without any of the rewards/benefits) - Very meta focused - Inability to play with friends of lower skill quality [b][u]An Example of SBMM in Action[/u][/b] UK player, Monday evening i.e. a peak time for gaming, using Freelance 6s so won't be skewed by FT's. Of course not the most popular playlist, but there still should be enough players online (given Destiny has circa >600k PvP players online in an average day) in this playlist for this test. Match 1 - allowing the Bungie algo to connect to any player it wants too. http://www.screencast.com/t/9Etd0aScN For those that don't know, the red circles are the locations of all the players in this match. As you can see there are no local connections as I'm matched with players across the globe. Of course the pings to these players are extremely high (from a gaming perspective) and thus the logical conclusion is that I stand a lower chance of having a good connection experience in this game – (there are multiple red bars from the outset).Note that for any competitive FPS gamer these sort of cross continent connections would be deemed wholly unacceptable - I'm talking COD, CS:GO etc But what if these really were the only players that were online and trying to match at this point in time. One this is highly unlikely given the volume of daily players Destiny has and two we can test this by leaving the game straight away and trying to connect again. This time I will use my router to limit my connections to EU players only - not unreasonable to only want to connect to lower ping EU players is it?! Match 2 - Limiting the connection to EU players only http://www.screencast.com/t/NrhtBH35m The whole lobby is full of UK players only! Those exclamation points are also players that Bungie tried to connect me to but my router refused - hence it was trying to connect me to the East Coast US players BEFORE it connected me to local UK players. These tests can be repeated over and over again with the same result - Destiny PvP MM will and does allow high ping, cross continent connections at the expense of local connections. All because of SBMM. Now, local connection doesn't necessarily mean good connection but it stands a damn higher chance of being a good connection than being matched with a whole lobby of US players that's for sure! This might not also happen every game - it will depend on your own skill, your location, the playlist, time of day etc etc. But the facts are undeniable, [b]Destiny does use skill in it's matchmaking at the fore which can and will at times be at the expense of local more favourable connections.[/b] [b][u]Thoughts[/b][/u] - Trying to force competitive games in a game with essentially below industry standard netcode using a P2P hybrid network and routinely forcing cross continent connections at the expense of local ones is an extremely poor design choice. - It's the equivalent of playing in a ranked playlist all the the time (think arena in Halo 5) but without good quality connections, decent netcode and the rewards/ranking such a playlist brings. - Netcode infrastructure was a design choice made in a very different climate. PvE was the main focus clearly and not PvP. More appropriate design choices will surely be made for Destiny 2. - MM changes was a design choice to fix an issues that wasn't really present - pubstomping. - Pubstomping happens in EVERY FPS game and for the most part is not seen as an issue. It's one thing to protect new players and players at the extreme end of the skill curve from each other (which should happen) but it's another to what we have right now. - Pubstomping is not routine - being matched with top 10% players is a rare occurrence. Mercy rule is a good addition to stop lopsided boring games. - Fireteam size not being accounted for in MM is an issue - full FT against full solo's should not happen as often as it does -Players would much rather have game variety (do well in some poorly in others) and the best connection experience possible than close, competitive games with poor hit registration and lag issues - Damage referee is inconsistent in its effectiveness and always will be (because of the netcode and high latency) - Any logical argument against SBMM does not involve 'cos I want to pubstomp noobs' - Brings issues with class and weapon balance and the lack of frequent tweaks to the fore even more as people are forced to use the meta in order to stand a chance of having an enjoyable experience. - The only other recent game with strong SBMM was AW - it was universally hated. - The complaints about MM since the changes far outweigh any complains in Y1 about matchmaking. - This post contains nothing that has not been stated consistently for the months since MM was changed. - The lack of honesty and transparency regarding the initial MM changes combined with flippant comments (play strikes) and the unwillingness of devs to engage in a logical debate has only increased the communities frustration. Sarcasm is not a proper communication method to a highly frustrated portion of the community that has deep emotional investment in your game. - Protest posts exist because the community has become deeply frustrated at the lack of acknowledgement/engagement on the subject. It's a last resort for attention. TL;DR - Main design philosophy for casual playlists (i.e .everything outside of trials) should be for players to have fun whilst playing with friends of varying skill quality with a good connection experience with minimal latency effects. - Current MM design philosophy has an effect of making games as competitive as possible which can be and DOES come at the expense of connection quality and creates an unenjoybale experience for many as well as contradicting the 'Destiny is best when played with friends' mantra. - Players would rather get stomped now and again whilst having better connections than play ultra competitive matches where latency can decide the outcome of a gun fight.