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Edited by Cozmo:
11/15/2016 12:42:12 AM
141
Why I hate SBMM (as a new player)
When I see Bungie's constant response to people begging them to remove SBMM as "CBMM would make it hard for new players to get better/have fun", I can't help but be disappointed - because this is flat out not true at all, and quite the opposite.
I have played Destiny since RoI came out. I am 395-400 on all 3 characters, and have around a 1.0 KD on all of them. I've played FPS games in general for many years, and consider myself to be pretty good at them. I've grinded this game out for a while, and I feel confident saying I understand a lot of the Destiny mechanics such as movement, flinch, recoil, targetting, etc. That is why, when engaging in a 1-on-1 gunfight with another player with good connection (and he isn't a juggernaut/party crasher titan - that's another story) I am usually the winner. However, when that enemy player has a red bar connection and can eat a magazine or two of primary ammo and suddenly teleport behind me, I am ALWAYS going to die - and it is very hard to enjoy or get better at a game when everybody you see is a god.
I understand that players lag, and that it happens in every game. However, the issue is that with Destiny's "SBMM" system, almost everybody I play against is a red bar. It's gotten so bad in my personal opinion that if I join a game and check the scoreboard and see that my team has more red bars than the enemy team, I chalk it up to a win. I refuse to believe that the constant red bars is just an issue of location, either. There is NO WAY that everybody in my "skill" range lives on the other side of the planet, and I'm not even going to question how somebody who finishes every game with a 5.0 KD due to them lagging around the map like David Blaine gets matched against me, with a 1.0 KD on a good day. SBMM completely and utterly ruins the fun of Destiny PVP for me, because it is so easy for players to exploit the hell out of it (or, if they're not cheating, I guess I just HAPPEN to always get matched with/against people with cardboard routers). It's impossible to have fun or get better at a game when lag is always an issue, and even if I could become more skilled through it all, it wouldn't matter. No amount of personal skill at a game is going to fix the fact that enemies on my screen are sprinting at a wall, but on THEIR screen they are standing behind me with a matador and I am dead.[b] I would, 10 times out of 10, rather play against a team of 5.0 KD super-sweaty kids with green bar connection, because at least then I know that my skill will have an effect on the outcome of the match, rather than a team of unkillable teleporting red bars.[/b]
TL;DR:
As a newer Destiny player, SBMM prevents me from having any fun or gaining skill at the game, because it's just a massive teleporting lag-fest anyway and I, with my pathetic green bar very fast internet, have zero chance of survival. Get rid of SBMM and replace it with CBMM, or at least heavily favor CBMM.
[spoiler]Moderator edit: This thread has been moved to #Feedback forum so that other Destiny players can weigh in. See [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/139533839/0/0]Cozmo's thread[/url] for more information about the #Feedback tag and its uses.
Feel free to private message the moderator who moved your post, link to topic for further clarification about why this topic was moved.[/spoiler]
English
#feedback
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1 ReplyYip lag gods are much more frustrating than better players.
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6 RepliesSbmm - sucks because it doesn't filter out bad connections. Cbmm - sucks because no one likes going 3-12 with a .25 k/d. I don't get why Bungie can't figure out a way to combine the two... oh, wait- actually I do know why.. it's because they don't care lol.
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6 RepliesYep. SBMM is AIDS
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16 RepliesA couple things... First, when people talk about "new players", they're generally not talking about middle of the road players such as yourself, they're talking about people with little to no skill. For a noob who's never experienced PvP, SBMM is the only thing that allows them a chance to play competitively. Second, as a ~1.0 KD player, that puts you squarely in the middle of the pack with the vast majority of players. As such you're in the group with connectivity least affected by SBMM. That's not to say that pure CBMM wouldn't decrease your lag, but it probably wouldn't decrease it by much. If you're being paired with people on the other side of the world it's more likely due to player dropoff, i.e. there are players in your area you might have been matched with six months or a year ago, but they're not playing Destiny anymore so you end up matched with more distant players.
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SBMM is AIDS
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This is part of the problem in this whole SBMM vs CBMM debate. Even the average players are fooled into jumping on the anti SBMM band wagon. If it ever gets removed, this guy along with many others are going to realize just how average they really are.
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9 RepliesNo. Look at all these people who are worried about their kd. I want to be matched with people of equal skill and sbmm allows this to happen. DEEJ AND COSMO - IGNORE THIS THREAD!!!!
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You have a 1.0 kd [b]against players sbmm has selected for you[/b]. This means that SBMM is working perfectly, and has consistently selected opponents that are good enough to kill you as often as you kill them, but not so good as to kill you more than you more than you kill them. [b]Having a k/d of 1.0 is the expected outcome under SBMM[/b], regardless of your skill level. k/d says nothing about your absolute skill; it just tells you your skill compared to the people you're playing against. Under SBMM, kd>1 says you're getting better, kd<1 says you're getting worse.
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Remove sbmm
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1 ReplyThis is 90% made up crap. If you are going to have a legit whinge please keep the fairytales to a minimum and just use facts
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1 ReplyI think it's hilarious that all these whiny idiots seem to think that SBMM is 100% to blame for lag and that removing it is the only option for fixing it.
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Alright, here we go the most infamous discussion currently to be part of these threads: SBMM. Yay or Nay? In this discussion, I will be addressing both the positives and negatives on this debate, and will try to see from both viewpoints. Just a footnote though, I am in the top 1% and have a 2.05KD with 3000+ hours into Crucible alone and been playing since Dark Below, so I know what I'm talking about when it comes to SBMM and the Crucible in general. [b]Let's start with the Pros of SBMM:[/b] - [b]Allows[/b] unskilled players to have balanced matches with other unskilled players, allowing them to slowly be introduced into the Crucible. - [b]Makes[/b] games more equal for both sides, seeing that there would be no major skill gaps. - [b]Makes[/b] it less likely for unskilled players to be pubstomped. [b]Unfortunately, those are really the only Pros of SBMM. Now, let's look at the Cons:[/b] - [b]Since[/b] skill is prioritized over connection consistently, and connection is hardly considered at all, (Don't argue with that one: 95% of the Destiny Community agrees with that), games are lagging all the time. Red Bars are always in the lobbies, and it makes matches unplayable. People are matched up with other people across the world sometimes, which is just unacceptable in any game, even with dedicated servers. - [b]Matchmaking[/b] times take minutes on end to find one match, no matter the playlist. - [b]Matches[/b] for people above 1.5KD's are always a constant sweaty match, which makes the Crucible more a chore and less a casual experience. I can't use any "fun" loadouts anymore (Red Death with Saladin's Vigil and Defender anyone?) because each match is a competetive mess just to get above at least 10 kills. I don't mind playing a sweat every now and then, but every single match? That's just frustrating, infuriating, and most of all, dissapointing. - [b]It limits[/b] the diversity of weapons, armor, and subclasses in the Crucible: Shotguns are rampant and snipers are nearly unusable. Auto Rifles are garbage, while High ROF pulses and Palindrome handcannons are dominating the meta. Anyone who doesn't use these types of gear is already at a [i]major[/i] dis-advantage, and has to use those weapons just to play, much less win and enjoy the actual game. - [b]It discourages[/b] playing with people in fireteams who have great stats, especially if your fireteam members are new to the game, because it takes the player with the highest stats and pairs the fireteam with people of that skill, which makes it impossible for the other members to play. Some people (typically ones below 1.0KD's) are concerned that if SBMM is removed, then low skilled players will be destroyed over and over again, but that isn't true. Keep this in mind: 1/100 Destiny players is in the top 1%, so the chances that you will run into one of them is very, very slim. Most games will be only a skill gap of about 0.1-0.2, which isn't that much of a difference. Also, there is concern that games will be more difficult, but that is a positive thing. Playing people of the same skill level when said skill level is so low doesn't help either player get better: mistakes are forgiven and getting better is very, very slow. I started off as most people do: a noob. I had good matches where I did well, and I also had matches where I got my a** handed to me on a plate, but I [i]learned[/i] from these experiences. I got better quickly, and now I am in the top 1%: not through playing people of my skill every time, but losing to people who are better than me. [b]There are many more cons to list, but those are the major ones. Now, what is the solution to this?[/b] Simple: bring back Year 1 matchmaking. Year 1 matchmaking was a blend of CBMM [i]and[/i] SBMM. CBMM was favored more heavily, creating much better connections, then a dash of SBMM was also there to make sure that top tier players weren't thrown in with the absolute bottom tier players. This created very smooth games with decent equalization on both teams, making the experience enjoyable for all. On top of this, here's another way to keep bottom tier players from getting destroyed (even though it is highly unlikely). Add SBMM for new players that lasts until they have 5 hours into the Crucible (an average game is 10 minutes, so you can get 30 games done in 5 hours), and once that time is reached they will be put into the Year 1 matchmaking process. This allows new players to be introduced by playing people of their skill, and once they are comfortable enough they will be introduced into normal Crucible. [b] So, to recap what needs to be done:[/b] - Year 1 Matchmaking needs to be brought back to normal Crucible, even Iron Banner and Trials of Osiris, although increase the SBMM just a hair in that algorithem for the latter two. - Add SBMM protection for players under 5 hours of Crucible time, allowing them to get adjusted slowly. Again, these are just my thoughts, but I think this could potentially work very well. And Bungie, remember that if you try this out and it doesn't work, you can always change it back: nothing is set in stone. Before I go I want to leave with this: [i]No one asked for SBMM in Year 1, and ever since you implemented it without telling us at first, everyone's been having a worse Crucible experience.[/i] Diversity is at an all time low, fun loadouts are nearly non-existent, lag is everywhere, matchmaking takes forever, and having fun in generally is hard to come by. People would rather play people of different skills that have great connection rather than people of their skill but terrible connection. Things need to change, and Year 1 matchmaking was the best. Please, consider this proposal and at least try it: I'm sure it will work. Your Crucible slave, -xBriarlightx
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16 RepliesEdited by CookieNiki: 11/14/2016 9:37:26 PMYou should write to Activision. The solution to what you are complaining (lag and red bars) is Dedicated Regional Servers, not CBMM. CBMM is bad for new and less skilled players, the learning curve is stupidly steep because they are matched countless times with top tier players and what results of that is they lose any motivation to play and improve their skills because of the frustration of being pubstomped again and again. In the end CBMM is bad for all PvP community if used as the prevalent choice for matchmaking. The absolute only way for CBMM being used without shitty results is if it's always paired with SBMM (as it has been from almost a year). Well maybe, just maybe, Bungie could loosen a bit the SBMM algorithm and give a little more "juice" to CBMM but they should never ever put a end to SBMM.
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1 ReplyTrust me mate, getting beasted every match by players that are so out of your league it's not even funny is a hell of a lot more frustrating than the red bar warriors you occasionally encounter.
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5 RepliesEdited by Kone19ps: 11/15/2016 5:30:04 PMSo you never experienced how lopsided matches got in HOW when the population tanked. Therefore you have no frame of reference for the problems people cried for sbmm here to be added to begin with. The issue people have with it now is connection. Skill matching isn't strict enough to make you horribly sweaty until you're well above average in which case the issue is smaller population again. If you regularly play with fireteams more skilled than you then your stats will be skewed as well as your matching making it harder to compete queuing solo. As a solo casual player my matching was significantly improved by sbmm. I do not want to go against people with double my kd. I just quit blowout matches. Leading to more matches in progress and less filled matches. This would be the biggest issue with cbmm. The bigger the match skill difference the more likely one team is to just quit putting stress on the entire matching system
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Two words...dedicated servers. SBMM - lag fest, unable to hit. (Works only with dedicated servers that allow good connections) CBMM - crushed by superior players. (Works only when the connections are excellent and you are lucky enough to get paired with good players and not against them).
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SIGNED
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4 Replies-- GDPR: removed by user request --
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3 RepliesNo offense, but you kinda ruin your whole "as a new player" arguemnt and trying to say cbmm is good for new players when you say you win most 1v1 gubfights. Then you aren't a new, low skill player and can't really say cbmm is bad for low skill players because you aren't one.
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3 RepliesI just looked back at about 10/12 games on your character with the most playtime. There is one game I found with anyone on either team with a kd above 3 and that was a 5.5 with only 11 kills and the lowest score on the team in that match I.e joined late probably. The highest after that I saw was a 2.83kd with 17 kills and 6 deaths which is not exactly godlike unless they are doing that every game. I'm confused where are these red bar gods your talking about? I run into people with bad connections all the time but they are the exception not the rule whereas it seems like you are only facing these people. I'm not calling you a liar I just don't see it in the game stats on the character of yours I looked at.
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3 RepliesI hardly ever see players with red bars and have never enjoyed pvp as much as I do now. Iron Banner was great and hopefully the next one is just as good. Seems like I'm the only one.
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6 RepliesI disagree entirely. I quit playing pvp sometime in the year 1 to year 2 timeframe because before SBMM, all I did was spawn and die and finish last. I got no enjoyment out of it whatsoever, so I quit playing pvp. How does that improve players pvp skills when the experience is so terrible they stop playing it? I decided to struggle through Iron Banner over the weekend because I was seeing a friend get 400 items while I got 3oC doing nightfalls. I expected a struggle but it wasn't. I actually enjoyed it. I finished anywhere from first to last with K/Ds from .5 to 4.5. It was far better and good enough that I may keep playing pvp, at least until SBMM is removed.
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