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Edited by DeeJ: 9/13/2016 12:15:38 AM
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DeeJ

Notes on the Hand Cannon.

Guardians, Recently, our conversation as a community has included a spirited debate about the role of the Hand Cannon in Destiny. We had that same chat in our own house. Here is a statement that our Sandbox Design Team created together. Those are the developers who work on the overall gameplay in Destiny. These are their words. [quote]Hello Destiny community! Due to a recent resurgence in feedback about “Ghost Bullets” we wanted to take a minute to explain how and why the weapons in Destiny behave the way that they do… “Ghost Bullets” is a community-coined term that is being used to describe the frustration of missing the intended target due to weapon stats. The bullets aren’t disappearing, they just aren’t hitting the bullseye. Internally, we would call this specific aspect of a weapon “Accuracy,” which is one of the values embedded in the Range Stat of every Destiny weapon. When looking at Destiny weapon archetypes, we wanted players to be able to assume a weapon’s traits through visuals and an intuitive understanding of how weapons work. Players can make the assumption that barrel length, and stability (stock) will affect the accuracy of a weapon class. These types of distinctive behaviors make for fun and interesting choices within the action simulation. In short, Hand Cannons, with a relatively short barrel and no stock, are not intended to be long range precision weapons like a Scout Rifle or a Sniper Rifle. Instead they are big, heavy, [u]pistols[/u] that pack a large punch. If you can control the kick, and close on your targets during combat, you will likely (as our friend Variks says) “Kill them dead.” We want to very sincerely say that this communique is not meant to be argumentative or belittle any of the consistent feedback we’ve received on the subject. Regardless of how “correctly” the game systems are working, the core message is that shooting a Hand Cannon during high skill gameplay can feel inconsistent and/or frustrating for people. [b]We hear you, and we are always looking to improve on that experience.[/b] While it’s unlikely that we would completely remove Accuracy as a concept from Destiny weapons, we will investigate alternative options to balance Hand Cannons vs. other weapon archetypes. Destiny is a game that will evolve as players push, pull, and build the world. You are wonderful people, the best community, and passionate about this game in a way that pushes us to always be our best. Thank you for playing, and thank you for reading.[/quote] To reiterate that the game makers just said: These conversations are never finished. Keep telling us what you think about the gunplay and the balance in Destiny, and us community guys continue to add your voice to their discussion about our creative process. [spoiler]Moderator edit: This thread has been moved to the #Destiny forum. See [url=https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/140391030/0/0]Cozmo's thread[/url] for more information about the #Destiny tag and its uses. Feel free to private message the moderator who moved your post, link to topic, for further clarification about why this topic was moved.[/spoiler]
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  • Hand Cannons cant compete in close range because of the shotgun-heavy meta, so thats moot. Furthermore, I cant really respect anything Deej has to say towards balance based on his Destiny account alone.

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  • Edited by SleepyPuppies: 10/29/2016 12:41:52 AM
    There are too many issues in this game there are a lot of people who were good at this game and now not so much because of the many issues that destiny has. When you try to please everyone you please no one get your shit together destiny please bump bump bump

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  • This rather important subject has gone quiet.... Are you going for the usual solution of going quiet and hoping it just goes away? You know, if you just ignored it to begin with, like the LAG issues that plague Destiny, with the CBMM and the SBMM issue... :/ You could have just fobbed it off, with the intent of doing nothing about it. Still, as it was a well known and popular player that proved it, and did so publicly, your ignorance is bliss tactic wouldn't work so well. Still, it seems you're there now. Better late than never...

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    • Another point is how when the reticle is held over target you get maximum damage at close range and fire again it misses. Rng nothing to do with barrel length. You just making crap up now

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      • Don't insult us. You've made the game no ob friendly. All the weapons that are easy to use have been buffed and the weapons that reward the skilled hand have been nerfed. After all your rebalancing pvp is now the most unbalanced retarded experience ever. Everybody uses the same weapons because you've left us no choice. Boring a s s pulse and shotgun. Trials in year one was a better experience than it is now cause of the sbmm. Games turned to s.ee h.ow I. t.hink

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        • Accuracy should be determined by where your reticle is placed when you pull the trigger not by distance to target. Optimal damage should be directly linked with range of said weapon. Optimal = distance at which weapon does 100% of its intended damage. Fall-off = the further you get outside weapons optimal the less damage each bullet should do. People's frustrations are born from the word "accuracy" because you (bungie) believe it to mean something else. As demonstrated in many different videos, if two guardians are standing at a determined distance from each other and the reticle is aimed perfectly at the head, if one bullet registers then so should all the others. Telling your player base that some bullets will register and some won't depending on RNG is bound to confuse and infuriate people.

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        • Your game's PvP is embarrassing compared to Halo CE, 2, and 3.

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        • Just remove bloom

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        • Edited by Mors: 10/6/2016 1:51:17 PM
          Accuracy should never be random in shooters. fix it. worst thing u can implement in the fps game is random accuracy. I don't understand how stupid must you be to implement such a thing when you have dozens of other options to level the playing field.

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          • -> https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/52cmwt/massive_breakdown_on_bloom_and_handcannons/ read . this. article, bungie.. YOU . ARE . WRONG.. (and he is right.)

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            • Are ghost bullets required on shotguns as well? Too often I'll run up on an AFK, put the shotgun in their mouth, pull the trigger and watch only the health bar come off. Makes all the other encounters when I get destroyed using a matador with range finder and the other guy using In Times of Need, rather frustrating.

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              • Crucible Team, Hand cannons are completely balanced where they are at. Everyone who says otherwise just wants a repeat of year one HoW Era where hand cannons were effectively used at ALL ranges which brought about major imbalance. Thank you.

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                • What if, instead of having the "accuracy" stat active at all times, it activates when the target is outside of the weapons damage falloff. So the higher the range stat, the longer until the weapons accuracy becomes unreliable

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                  • Deej Before, or even after, your team goes through all the things it goes through to make a weapon (some of it listed above) remember to ask yourselves "Is it fun?" and "What can we do to make it more fun?"

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                    • I don't need the game to decide on my accuracy for me please and thank you. Emphasize the damage fall off just let me hit where I'm pointing thank you.

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                      • Sorry having just played a match where the first 2 rounds connected and the following 4 vanished into thin air from about 4 feet away away I'd say ghost bullets are a gorram problem for hand cannons. It's a pain to use handcannons now. That's my experience on it.

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                      • Question: If the game mechanics are working correctly then why didn't year 1 Thorn have this issue? This issue occurred right after the thorn got nerfed.

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                        • Oh wow, just been playing this off as lag or just miss aiming but had no idea that this was actually a thing.

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                        • Bungie.. Handcannons suck right now. You destroyed the entire class because of thorn. Fix the accuracy. The game is no fun when you cant hit stuff. Its that simple

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                          • This is a very poor excuse not to fix this issue. You say if you close the gap while hitting your shots you'll kill the target quick...been there, done that. And guess what!? Doesn't work. Ghost bullets are a cancer in this game with hand cannons. It's time to take on this issue and listen to the community and streamers on this one. Take away bloom and fix the ghost bullets on hand cannons!!

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                          • Anyone who complains about ghost bullets sounds like an absolute child. The Eyasluna/Palindrome archetype is slightly overpowered were it stands, and a buff would turn destiny's PvP game into a circlejerk of streamers who all think that their "balanced" hand cannon requires anymore skill than anything else.

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                          • Is the any other example of this system being used in any other fps? I've been playing fps games for the better part of 20 years across multiple platforms from the commodore 64 to ps4, pc etc and I just can not think of a single game where if you aim at the target within the gun types effective range the game would decide you missed. I'm talking about first shot from a stand still position on a stationary opponent. I'm genuinely curious if anyone has any info?

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                            • Stop your nerf, balance and all related or similar actions based on real world, sandbox dudes that never saw the grainy stuff im the beta update deployed before the 20th, or actual logic. This is a game and we, the players should be adapted to the way it was designed and visualized. Otherwise, change the issue with gravity, plants, air, fire, atmosphere, water, etc. and OSHA rules violations in your constructions. Once we are adapted to a gun, you change it because a baby cry and we have to delete or relearn how and when to use it. If you want to keep up interested in the game that's the wrong way. Send a questionnaire to your customers base and find out. It's better than listening to immature or egocentric people that see themselves as the center of the world. Just my 2¢.

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                            • I would be ok with damage fall off over ghost bullets. I loved using handcannons in year 1 but once you all nerfed them to the point of "some shots aren't going to go where you aim" I just gave up on them. I understand the reasoning behind what you all are trying to do, but come on Bungie, shots should land where you aim. Just make it a damage fall off thing, that's it. I admitted that Hawkmoon was OP in year 1 because it's all I used. Picking people off from across the map. I'm fine with the damage fall off making medium range encounters take 4-5 headshots or something like that. Just stop making it where random bullets go random places when shot. If I put my crosshair on a target, it should hit regardless.

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                              • This is cancer if I am at the -blam!-ING head I should hit the -blam!-ing head especially if I'm 10 ft away from someone. Not sit there and shot watching his head bob back as he mows me down. Da fuq is this shit.

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                              • Can we just make hand canons work the way they used to in early year 1? Please?

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