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8/31/2016 1:14:49 PM
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Disagree.
If you're that bad (K/D ==0.3) then SBMM isn't your problem, and CBMM isn't the answer.
Because if the game went to a CBMM scheme, you would still spend the vast majority of your time playing against people who are significantly better than you. You'd still perform poorly, and you'd still (no disrespect intended) be a liability to any team that is trying hard to win.
What SBSMM does---for a player like you---is LOWER the barriers to enterning the game....and acquiring the skill to play it.
With SBMM you are matched against players who are of a similar skill level as yourself. SO THE GAME UNFOLDS MORE SLOWLY....and people are less likely to fight their way out of bad decisions based on raw twitch speed, or having lots of experience. So you have a chance to come to understand the game you're playing. See what are good decisions....because you get rewarded with kills. See what are bad decisions...because they get you killed. So you start to learn and you get better. Then the game gets you better opponents...and the process goes on. You get to experience some success and you get better incrementally.
Without any SBMM, you'd likely get thrown in with me. I'm currently averaging about a 1.25 K/D in my matches these days....even allowing for SBMM....which makes me about a top 20% player in PVP. But even at that level of the game, I'm going to move too fast, and make decisions too fast for you to keep up with. I'm going to be able to anticipate what are actually good decisions on your part....because I've seen them hundreds or thousands of times before. So there's a good chance you'll end up dead, even though you've done the "right" thing.
God forbid you get thrown in with the ELITE PvPers. Because at THAT level of the game you're going to be basically helpless. Those guys are so fast, shoot so precisely, and make decisions so quickly that you will have difficult time even understanding what's happening. You'll be like a Little League baseball player who's stepped into the batter's box with a Cy Young Award Winning Major League Pitcher.
You will not get better in a situation like that. You will not have fun. That is a recipie for humiliation and frustration on a CONTINUAL basis....and a player like yourself being forced to eventually quit.
Trust me. I went through something similar to that trying to learn how to play Battlefield 4 two years ago. ....and after two days of dying to people who seemed to literally spring up out of the ground around me, and not being able to figure out what I was doing wrong that kept getting me killed....
I finally said F-it, and quit.
...and those people you never get to hear complaining bout CBMM. You just get to hear the players who had "fun" running those people out, arguing in favor of letting them get their shit-stomping in.
English
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Basically what the man is trying to say in the up most respect is "Get Gud" and even if your don't try to "Get Gud" you will eventually if you continue playing.
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Fantastic post. It's amazing how many players forget this fundamental aspect of the game. I'm guessing the amount of lag is over-reported on these boards, thankfully Bungie don't listen to people angling for easy wins!
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Edited by Killlerschaf: 9/1/2016 7:46:14 AMStill arguing for SBMM? I'll say it over and over and over again: There's no point to have SBMM in a casual game without leagues, a ladder system and different rewards based on your tier. Let's not even talk about the broken balancing, 30 FPS, no dedicated servers and the inherent lag SBMM produces. You also forgot the SBMM carry situation, in which you have to carry 5 idiots with a 0.2 KD, while all of the enemies average a 1.5. Just because you are considered as being able to play a 1vs6 by the SBMM. I'm a huge fan of strict SBMM in Halo, not so much of the Overwatch one (what's the point of being a top 300 player if I have to play placement matches with noobs? Same carry situation as in Destiny. You'll never win those matches).
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Nobody is "forcing" anyone to quit PvP, regardless of matchmaking. I started destiny along with all the other day 1 players and certainly had my share of rough games. However I stuck with it and within six months was top 1%. Never once did I ever ask Bungie to make things easier on me. In order to IMPROVE, you must seek better competition. That being said I get where you're coming from at the same time. There's also no doubt most streamers/you tubers either are only echoing what the majority says or are trying to be as controversial as possible, that's not even mentioning the endless complaining most do about weapons and classes. Skill matchmaking has merits, it certainly does- it protects the casual side of PvP, and for example I think it should be a part of both trials and iron banner- that's when a huge amount of casual players will step into PvP to try and get new gear. However it doesn't belong in regular crucible as the only option, and certainly can't be used as an argument to improve since its capping the skill you can face. It also has a strongly negative effect on friends with different skill gaps playing together and don't even get me started with the lag it's brought. Matchmaking was great year 1. Bungie broke it with SBMM. I could go into many more issues but you get the point. There's literally no downsides to both SBMM in a ranked playlist (and maybe IB/Trials) with regular crucible CBMM. That's the dream.
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except you started with CBMM so, you didn't see the lag bullshit we have to deal with under SBMM. Year one was all CBMM.
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Edited by Brockie: 9/1/2016 7:56:18 AMYour post is a contradiction. You maintain you got from a beginner to the top 1%, and that this was directly because the players you faced got more challenging? People need challenge to improve. You stand by this statement I presume? Then how do you propose someone would get better than average with only CBMM? Their opponents would never improve, even if they did grind through the early period and somehow figure out what works (Which for reasons already explained they couldn't so) Having already had the benefits of SBMM yourself it's unfair of you to want to deny it to others now. If you want matches against players with a good connection to you use private games. At your level that's an entirely reasonable requirement.
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I would only disagree because I felt I got better playing people better than me. Sure it feels good to kick ass and have no repercussions but to get better you need to be challanged. I hadn't played a pvp game before destiny, I'm 40 something and wanted to know if I still had 'it'. I started at .6 and I think I'm at a 1.1 or so now, this was before sbmm. if all the tallented destiny players just happened to live close to me, I'd rather get my ass kicked and learn than win all the time with a bunch of sucks.
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Perfect! 😁👍
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Great post! There needs to be a gateway so bad players like me can have a chance to learn from our mistakes. Maybe a ranked play list would be helpful. I hear some folks have been clamouring for one...
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His point is that he can't play with his friends who are better at pvp than him, because it puts him in a lobby where he is the worst player ever single game. When he solo queue's, sbmm works better for him, but he wants to play with his friends without getting stomped. Trust me I used to have the same opinion as you about sbmm, until I got a friend who isn't as good as I am in the crucible, and we really don't do much pvp together because of it. And playing with friends is really the best way to experience Destiny, even in the crucible.
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not bad bro. But the complete story is that SBMM should work for ultra shitty players, and that should exist. For anyone that's put in 100 hours into the game and they haven't improved.... well.....
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Edited by celeb2112: 8/31/2016 8:09:07 PMSo simple and clear to understand, but there are simply those people who would kill others at the command of a dog...
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Battlefield is a completely different story. That game has a mucher higher learning curve for new players. I had that luxury of figuring it out many years ago. It should be much easier now, but after years of playing the franchise I've kind of come to know how it plays. I also play it at a competitive level so playing against other good players who know the game well is not new to me as well.
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Well said I quit Destiny pvp in year 1 because I couldn't stay alive long enough to improve. I'd spawn somewhere (not sure where because I didn't know maps) and within 10 seconds I would die and not know why. After a few months and still not knowing the maps and tactics I quit the pvp side of the game I came back to pvp in January because I heard about sbmm and now play a lot more regularly (over 100 games in last IB and completed all daily / weekly bounties across 3 characters), I get to know the maps and what I am doing. I am still below average but am improving at my own pace because of sbmm. If it went went back to year 1 setting, I'd probably quit again (even though I know the maps and am better now than I was then) because I know I would do badly every match because I wouldn't do well even in a lobby full of average players
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Nice post. This side of the SBMM "debate" needs to be heard from more often. The elite players and the Streamers dominate the stage....don't let them.
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SBMM yes. But strict SBMM with leagues and dedicated servers, just as much as a dedicated social playlist. Destiny is simply not the correct game for SBMM.
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I keep posting the "other side" of the sbmm argument every so often. I was more active a few months ago than I am now Back in January/ February time I managed to convince quite a few people who had a bad time in year 1 to return and try out pvp with sbmm I think the main problem is that people who prefer sbmm are not as good at pvp and don't have as much experience. Some are just too quiet to admit it; others don't know what it would be like in cbmm The guy I replied to put across the point very well despite being a good player - it's good to see that
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You've been talking to me the whole time. It put point across well, because I still remember what it was like to be a new-and-not-so-good player...and how frustrating (and humiliating) that can be in a FPS where there is no MM allowance for skill levels. I had the exact same experience you had in Year One in this game....trying to learn how to play Battlefield 4. After two days of being nothing but target-practice for better players and have NO better understanding of the maps, or the flow of the games....or any idea what I kept doing wrong? I simply quit...never been back. ...and I think that is the experience of a lot players playing FPS...and why even CoD is seeing its numbers stagnate. This evnironement is extremely hostile to new and low-skill players. Which is why I was disappointed about what I'm seeing with Titanfall 2. The AI opponents had the same impact on gameplay that SBMM does in Destiny. It lowered the bar of entry to lower skilled players. If you weren't good enough to go up against other players...you could still have success and contribute to your team by farming the AI opponents. Going up aagsint them CREATEd that slow moving situation where new players could learn the game, learn the maps and hone their gunskills....until they were ready to take on other players. But like here----you had high-skill players complaining and arguing about they 'ruined' the game. (because the chaos allowed lower skill players to "disappear" into the confusion, and level the playing field a bit). It seems Respawn isn't wiling to draw a line in the sand and say that this PvPvE environment is PART of the identity fo the game and what makes it unique. What they showed in their beta (essentially) were game modes that strongly de-emphasized the AI oppoents. The result was a game that looked a lot like...and felt a lot like Call of Duty. Especially since CoD has spent a lot of the last 3 years since TF 1 dropped, copying the mobility innovations that Titanfall first brought to FPS. So Respawn can't just rely on that..a.nd the mechs....to make them stand out anymore.
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[quote]You've been talking to me the whole time.[/quote] That showed how much attention I pay to things. Maybe that's why I'm so bad at pvp ;-)
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Great post. This has been my exact experience. I look forward to jumping into all aspects of the crucible now because I know that there will be some good games and some bad. I'm interested in getting better and feel like SBMM has made the crucible a training ground for me to get better. I'm a really low tier player, but I even went into ToO this weekend with some friends to learn more. SBMM put the carrot in sight for me. Now I'm starting to chase it.
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the downside to how SBMM is deployed is this though. I have .80 k/d average on all 3 characters. Now, I go into a rumble match and get a map I know well and seriously kick ass. I come out above a 1.0. Now, my next game I might get the same group or depending on how bad I stomped them I get kicked up a level. So, now I am playing with players like yourself. Yet, my skills haven't truly improved I got lucky to be put up against morons. Now, I am getting my ass kicked and and I am down to a .30 k/d. So, the next game instead of putting me with losers again. It puts me up against you 1.0+ guys for the next 5 straight games. Then it will maybe give me some .80-.90 players. Then again up to the 1.0+ guys. Finally, after 4 hours it will put me back into the lower pool again and the process starts all over. The Algorithm is busted, everyone knows that. I am tired of SBMM and NOT CBMM. At least with CBMM when I shot someone I had a reasonable expectation that they might die. Under SBMM now, I have NO expectation of my headshots killing someone as they could be in Spain, Mexico, Australia and be lagging crucible gods. Just because, they have crappy internet with horrible latency.
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I have the same exact experience as you my friend. I am also .8 with all 3 characters. One major thing that happens is the damage referee. The first game I play everyday I know I am going to do good. Always positive kd. So I play and get like a 1.7 kd. Everyone seems to be easy to find and kill. It only takes a few shots to kill someone as it should. Next game here comes the damage referee, even if I am playing the same opponents. I did good the first game so the damage referee comes out and nerfs me. Now I am slower and it takes a full clip of shooting someone to even take their shield down. I think it's more of a matter of the damage referee than sbmm/cbmm. But yeah I have the same experience. Really good game followed by really bad games then throw in a really good game again. It is rare to have a few consistent matches but does happen sometimes.
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I thought I was crazy. Some games I shoot rubber bullets. Nobody dies. Switch guns. Same thing. Sometimes I wreck. When I am up against good people I understand why. Sometimes it is against avg jokes like me and I can't kill anyone
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The WAY its being done is the issue. The problem is that p2p connections are unstable and very dependant upon the local internet infrastructure.... ...and Bungie's algorithms for MM are TOO TIGHT for the size of the population playing PVP. algorithms CAN be written that BALANCE both skill level and connection quality
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at this point, why can't we just have a choice on each game type? Like we do for strikes. In strikes I get normal, or heroic. I would love to pick a rumble match and get to choose between SBMM or, CBMM. Letting me control my experience better. If I choose CBMM I know I have a chance of going up against elites but, I know I also have a chance of NOT experiencing lag and other BS. If I choose SBMM I know I take the chance against going against the same elites now, with Lag thrown in. Yet, there is that small chance of getting a match with morons. Let us players decide how we want our experience to be. I am tired of the experience being controlled to the point where I am seriously rethinking the entire game. It's NOT FUN anymore. I want to have some FUN again.
