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Edited by Squall Knight:
8/16/2016 9:07:02 AM
62
The Final touches of PvP: Buffs and Nerfs please read
I would first like to voice my appreciation for the [i]best diversity[/i] the Crucible has ever seen. A player can now be comfortable choosing any weapon type. A guardian can pick up a weapon, be killed by it, and get kills, but for the most part understand, both how and why. This is the case more now, than it ever has been. I'm speaking on the essentials.
With weapon balancing nearing its peak there are several weapons, and weapon archetypes that have either lost, or gained an edge in consistency. These weapons while originally retaining good base stats, were left behind as Destinys' PvP took a different direction in balance. I feel once each weapon archetype is playable PvP will further continue to flourish. As far as the meta, this article [b]WILL NOT[/b] counter any weapons strengths, and or play styles. Instead it will talk more about upgrades/perks around the weapons.
Weapon Archetypes needing improvement:
Low RoF Auto Rifles
Low RoF Pulse Rifles
High RoF Fusion Rifles
[u]Low RoF Auto Rifles[/u]
-Increase critical and base damage
[i]Changes:[/i]
[u]Example[/u]:
Anguish of Drystan
-Stability increase across the board
-Base damage of 21 to 23.
-Critical damage 26 to 28.
Kills in 9 body shots instead of 10.
Currently; 4 bodyshots, 4 headshots (at proper range) = 188 damage
With change; 4 bodyshots, 4 headshots (at proper range) = Kill (204)
[spoiler]I like to define this being used best at closer mid ranges. High damage. Consistent. High muzzle climb because of high impact, making it difficult to land shots from further away.[/spoiler]
[u]Low RoF Pulse Rifles[/u]
-Increase critical and base damage
-Decrease base stability (to offset high damage)
[i]
Changes:[/i]
[u]Example[/u]:
The Messenger
Base damage from 23 to 24.
Critical damage 34 to 38.
This brings enables a 2 burst kill, when landing 4 out of 6 shots critical on low armor targets.
To compensate for high damage and to bring pulse rifle players closer in
this weapon archetype will need its base stability reduced.
[u]Pulse Rifles[/u]
RoF [b]66[/b]
Example
[i]RedDeath[/i]
-Increase base damage 20 to 21
-Increase critical damage 30 to 32
[spoiler]Landing criticals allows you to kill in 1 less burst.[/spoiler]
RoF [b]73-77[/b]
Example
[i]Hawksaw and Grasp of Malok[/i]
-Increase damage drop off
[u]High RoF Handcannons[/u]
RoF [b]32[/b]
Example
[i]Word of Crota[/i]
-Increase base stability
[u]High Impact Handcannons[/u]
Example
[i]Timur's Lash[/i]
-Increase base damage 64 to 66
-Increase critical damage 95 to 98
[spoiler]allows guardians to kill low armored targets in 3 shots(at optimal range)[/spoiler]
[u]High RoF Fusion Rifles[/u]
-Decrease the projectile spread/Increase projectile accuracy
[i]Changes[/i]:
[u]Example[/u]:
Too Far Gone
Fusion rifles of this charge speed seem to be very inconsistent.
The projectile spread itself is off, even when properly leading a target.
While this may seem a trivial matter, it makes the weapon useless unless a players stands completely still.
Even when I'm sure the shots have landed the damage does not register. After fixing this it would be a much better idea to alter the Range and Stability of Fusion rifles and all of its archetypes in order to make the weapon more area specific(mid-close range ect.).
rather then the spread, as how it works becomes.
Keep in mind everything below this is strictly opinion, and I understand whoever may disagree with it.
However please discuss what you think in a manner we can all build on.
Weapons of the current Meta:
The Last word
Mida-Multitool
Hawksaw (archetype pulse rifles)
Universal remote
Sniper rifles
[u]
Mida-Multitool[/u]
One of the most used weapons, due to its high fire rate, as well as its consistency in landing shots. I attribute its consistently to the weapons high aim assist, of 90. This is the highest amount of aim assist of any scout rifle, in any archetype at all.
[i]Suggestions[/i]:
-Reduce the aim assist to be more in-line with scout rifles of the same archetype.
-[i]Add an effect[/i] that highlights targeted enemies in sight, while aiming down sights.
[spoiler]The second suggestion is to help players to quickly locate/focus on their target.[/spoiler]
[u]Universal Remote[/u]:
An exotic shotgun that holds the position of a primary slot. This weapon boast good range with a solid 1-shot capability. This makes it one of the best primary weapons in the game. The rush down game is what makes most people question its balance.
[i]Suggestions[/i]:
-Increase weapon ready time
[spoiler]This weapon is physically, one of the largest primary weapons in the game. This will push its play style back, forcing players to slow down, and read the situation more before shooting. This will incorporate a heavier feel to the weapon, that can be be felt and understood. It will slow down the rush downs and give other players more time to react.[/spoiler]
[u]Sniper rifles[/u]:
This is an interestingly abused weapon. In closer situations it is used to quickly tag a player, then switched into something else to get the kill. This play style takes away from primary weapon gun fights. I have more understanding for a player who was waiting for a kill the whole time, rather than someone one switched to a sniper last second and gets the kill.
[i]Suggestions[/i]:
-Introduce Sniper flinch
[spoiler]Making it more difficult for a guardian using a sniper rifle to combat most primaries at closer distances.[/spoiler]
[u]The Last word[/u]:
This weapon is undeniably one of the best weapons in the game. It has an explosive kill time, making short work of most at close and mid ranges.
[i]Suggestions[/i]:
-Decrease base stability
[spoiler]Reducing the base stability in this weapons gives less room for error for the player using the weapon[/spoiler]
Below are the list of Perk/Upgrades I feel Bungie should look at, as well as my suggestions for them.
Upgrades/perks:
[i]Counter balance, Hidden hand and Rangefinder[/i]
-Make these upgrades exclusive rolls
(To weapon types that have an amount corresponding to the stat they boost, that is below average.)
This will align the meta in a direction that favors unfavorable weapons. Making upgrade rolls unique to specific weapon/archetypes can be effective, both by preventing redundant perks, and disabling certain weapon builds from breaking the PvP of the game.
[i]Please feel free to comment below. Give feedback on how you agree and disagree. Please do your best to speak in a respectful manner. If you do disagree give full reasons as to what you disagree with and why. I will have more post coming soon.[/i][b][b][/b][/b]
Grenades
https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/210211933/0/0
Class change suggestions
https://www.bungie.net/en/Forum/Post/210281619/0/0
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2 RepliesHow will sniper flinch, the usual solution offering for the close combat kills, impact PvE? Negatively would be my guess, to an extent as to make them impossible to use in some cases, so I question the validity Neuter impact when not ADS and increase time to ADS, scaled over the impact rating of the sniper so that highest impact are dramatically increased
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1 ReplyI don't think high rof handcannons need a stability increase. Low rof do need a damage increase. The base handcannons, without perks, shouldn't all be a three headshot. At that point, it doesn't make sense to use a low rof over a high when they both kill in the same number of shots.
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14 RepliesRangefinder on a max range shotgun does nothing. Removing it would just further hurt shotguns like the patch a and further promote the usage of shotguns like conspiracy theory d and party crasher +1.
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1 ReplyCan bungie just hire you now? It was really difficult for me to find anything I could disagree with. Maybe the counterbalance change....? Even as a shotgun user I can't help agreeing with the removal of rangefinder. But what I really want is a crucible where side arms are hit scan and Auto Rifles aren't peashooters.....oh and not being insta-sniped in a gun fight.
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3 RepliesI severely disagree on the rangefinder and counterbalance ones. Especially counterbalance.
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4 RepliesUnrelated to Weapons, Is there a section discussing the fact that Titans (walking tanks) have a higher jump height than Hunters (light-weight acrobats)?
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2 RepliesIf you take out Rangefinder it should be replaced with another range perk instead of surrounded. Problem with the Universal Remote is that it has the best range of the shotguns, so rather buff other Shotguns or nerf Universal Remote. Not much of a problem left with Counterbalance, so it's unnessecary, MIDA dps Scouts are pretty sticky in general. I have a High Road Soldier with 82 Stability and it's awesome.
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2 RepliesN o M o r e N e r f s
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2 RepliesWell its a good post and i like a few things like buffing low rof autos and pulses. But other than that i feel everything should remain as it is. Also low rof handcannons need some love.
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7 Replies3 words [spoiler]go[/spoiler] [spoiler]-blam!-[/spoiler] [spoiler]yourself[/spoiler]
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1 ReplySo MIDA, you want to make it easier to see the bad guys, but get rid of AA...whatever that gun will still stomp face. You want to kill Universal remote. Got it. Snipers are [u]fine[/u]. They've already nerfed the stow time time, and scope time. As well as making all scopes longer range. Counterbalance has already been nerfed ffrom 90% to 80% Hidden Hand, you realize this doesn't aim the weapon for you yes? It just makes your sight sticky. Rangefinder. Literally nothing wrong with this perk, if you [b]still[/b]can't counter shotguns...that's your problem. Personally I think shot package should come back for the higher RoF shotgun.
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1 Reply[quote][i] Rangefinder[/i] -Remove this upgrade/perk from shotguns. It bends the statistics of what a shotgun, and all of its different archetypes should be. This is because shotgun encounters often happen slightly before a player enters melee range, in which this time becomes essential. Instead of using a shotgun then closing the distance with a melee, a player can instead stay at a farther distance and shoot again. The problem is how effective, and frustrating this tactic is. It hurts gameplay and other weapon types such as fusion rifles, sidearms, and auto rifles to say the least. [/quote] Do you understand what Rangefinder does? Most people think it increase the actual range of the gun, but oh they are dead wrong. Rangefinder just increases the consistency of damage falloff over the distance of which the stat allows it.
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1 ReplyWell thought out IMO. Don't agree with a lot, but some. A minor reduction to Mida's AA is something I've been calling for for some time now. I'd never used it till the most recent IB and I know why it's the most used gun now. I was hitting shots I had no business landing and crit hitting when my reticule wasn't even on target. The Remote getting its handling decreased is acceptable. Should also get a hit to carried ammo, but only for crucible. No Land Beyong needs more ammo for PVE. Wish PvE and PvP were balanced differently!!! Your perk recommendations...nah!
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1 ReplyThe only thing I disagreed with HEAVILY was the removal of HH from snipers and the removal of rangefinder on shotguns
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3 RepliesDelete this post immediately. You are only proposing "ideas" that affect you, and you only. If you took every play styles and every weapon type and problem, then evaluated them, taking into account other player's opinions, then you would want to reread your biased, stupid post. And remove the Cozmo tag. It doesn't help. [spoiler] Ever thought of commiting seppuku?[/spoiler]
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7 RepliesI agree with the sniper flinch increase. But instead of increasing damage for low rof autos just increase magazine size by 5-7 rounds and a range increase.
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1 ReplyI much agree with your thoughts on this, and I appreciate a well-organized thread.
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1 ReplyYour proposed nerfs are some of the worst ideas I've ever read on changing the "meta" weapons.
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1 ReplyThe Crucible is nowhere near balanced. Melee is [i]still[/i] broken. Damage referee is a joke and doesn't work. Phantom everything. Not even close to balanced after 2 years. It's a disgrace.
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1 ReplyI hate shotguns but even they're fine to where they could be. The original Felwinters with shot package and max range is closer to where they are in real life. So I think they're just fine for this game
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2 RepliesNo thanks
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1 ReplyEdited by ThundersDestiny: 8/3/2016 4:06:56 PMYou seem like an intelligent guy but your ideas are no good. Nothing is overpowered or needs to be toned down only buffs to the weaker weapons I suggest deleting your post or the salty and angry community will come
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3 RepliesSo many problems with this but i leave out last word because of bias reasons. But rangefinder does nothing for you if you already past the range cap, hidden hand don't really help unless your hard scoping counterbalance? Im leave it at that
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5 RepliesEdited by Mizo: 7/30/2016 10:10:14 PM[quote]Weapons of the current Meta: The Last word Mida-Multitool Hawksaw (archetype pulserifles) [b]Eyasluna[/b] [b]Grasp of Malok archetype[/b] [b]Doctrine of Passing/Arminus[/b] [b]Hawkmoon[/b] Universal remote Sniper rifles [u] Mida-Multitool[/u] One of the most used weapons, due to its high fire rate, as well as its consistency in landing shots. I attribute its consistently to the weapons high aim assist, of 90. This is the highest amount of aim assist of any scout rifle, in any archetype at all. [i]Suggestions[/i]: -Reduce the aim assist to be more in-line with scout rifles of the same archetype. -Add an effect that highlights targeted enemies in sight, while aiming down sights. [spoiler]The second suggestion is to help players to quickly locate/focus on their target.[/spoiler] [b]Nothing too dramatic for this nerf, a aim assist nerf wouldn't do much. I would be okay with this.[/b] [u]Universal Remote[/u]: An exotic shotgun that holds the position of a primary slot. This weapon boast good range with a solid 1-shot capability. This makes it one of the best primary weapons in the game. The rush down game is what makes most people question its balance. [i]Suggestions[/i]: -Increase weapon stow time [spoiler]This weapon is physically, one of the largest primary weapons in the game. This will push its play style back, forcing players to slow down, and read the situation more before shooting. This will incorporate a heavier feel to the weapon, that can be be felt and understood. It will slow down the rush downs and give other players more time to react.[/spoiler] [b]I'm okay with this, most shotgunners are used to the previous stow nerf[/b] [u]Sniper rifles[/u]: This is an interestingly abused weapon. In closer situations it is used to quickly tag a player, then switched into something else to get the kill. This play style takes away from primary weapon gun fights. I have more understanding for a player who was waiting for a kill the whole time, rather than someone one switched to a sniper last second and gets the kill. [i]Suggestions[/i]: -Increase weapon stow times. [spoiler]Making it more difficult for a guardian using a sniper rifle, to quickly switch to and from a sniper, forces that player to play a distance. Otherwise their disadvantage becomes more vast, as it should be.[/spoiler] [b]Less open choices when it comes to perks making Quickdraw a must.[/b] [u]The Last word[/u]: This weapon is undeniably one of the best weapons in the game. It has an explosive kill time, making short work of most at close and mid ranges. [i]Suggestions[/i]: -Reduce magazine size for 8 to 7 [spoiler]Most kills with this weapon happen within the first 4-5 bullets. It should be less about destroying the capabilities of where/how the weapon is good. Instead we should be tightening the reigns so it can remain what it is but balanced. Reducing the amount of ammo in this weapons magazine eases a defending players tactical advantage, giving less room for error for the player using the weapon[/spoiler]. [b]Buff Hip Fire Accuracy and give back its bonus damage but scale down precision shots down to 85. This gun should consistently 4 shot guardians.[/b] Below are the list of Perk/Upgrades I feel Bungie should look at, as well as my suggestions for them. Upgrades/perks: [i]Counter balance[/i] -Reduces 70% of recoil angle instead of 80% This perks seems to over compensate on weapon types, not only that naturally have less stability, but also carry stability upgrades in their skill tree already. [i]Hidden hand[/i] -Remove this upgrade/perk from the game. This upgrade actively adjust a players aim to be more accurate, which gives an unfair advantage in a situation where their shots would/should be more difficult to hit. That will indefinitely increase the skill gap. Its reliability often rewards players using certain weapon types in places they should not be used. Replace it with "Take a knee" as an upgrade that [b]increases the stability[/b] of a weapon as you shoot. [b]Take a Knee is able to no scope very consistently since the perk gives almost perfect hip fire accuracy. Hidden Hand is barely noticable since it only gives a 15% boost.[/b] [i] Rangefinder[/i] -Remove this upgrade/perk from shotguns. It bends the statistics of what a shotgun, and all of its different archetypes should be. This is because shotgun encounters often happen slightly before a player enters melee range, in which this time becomes essential. Instead of using a shotgun then closing the distance with a melee, a player can instead stay at a farther distance and shoot again. The problem is how effective, and frustrating this tactic is. It hurts gameplay and other weapon types such as fusion rifles, sidearms, and auto rifles to say the least. [b]Rangefinder [u]can not[/u] push past the shotgun max range cap (32). [/b] [i]Side note[/i]: I would like to see Lower RoF Auto rifles get buffed, as well as more accurate fusion rifles. Please feel free to comment below. Give feedback on how you a degree and disagree. Please do your best to speak in a respectful manner. If you do disagree give full reasons as to what you disagree with and why. I will have more post coming soon.[/quote] [spoiler]So far, none of the suggestions have been buffs, nerfs to weapons can also indirectly nerf other weapons.[/spoiler]
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Soon People are going to say you neft it to the ground [spoiler]Then the community going to get angry.[/spoiler]
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2 RepliesEdited by TheDAB: 7/29/2016 12:44:26 PMHave to say I disagree with most of the proposed nerfs, except your counterbalance ideas. I agree the effects of counterbalance are too drastic, to the point where the identity of a gun is spoiled. 80% down to 70% will help combat this. Also I reckon you forgot grasp of malok in your meta list. Mida multi-tool isn't a problem. The problem is that it is the only scout rifle of its archetype. We need some new legendary scout rifles of the same archetype, that way we can increase diversity and at the same time avoid a nerf to the Mida. The last word is one of the few guns capable of gunning down that guy rushing you with a shotgun. Personally I don't think reducing the clip size by 1 would have any positive outcome. That mediocre player spraying all 8 bullets to get a kill is never a problem and that good player who could get two kills with 4 bullets each doesn't deserve to be stripped of his capabilities. People complain about the last word but again I think the main problem is the lack of alternatives. I think medium and low RoF auto rifles need to be buffed to the standards set by the highest RoF auto rifles. All of a sudden you have a myriad of great short range primary choices in addition to the last word. Also, this would help isolate shotguns to point-blank encounters only and help combat shotgun charging. Increasing Universal Remotes stow time alone won't stop people rushing with it, having stronger short range primaries however will. Shotgun range is actually capped at 32. I myself own a party crasher with rifled barrel, pushing it's range up to this cap. If I had rangefinder on this shotgun of mine, it would be a wasted perk. Also note that rangefinder on shotguns is a mere 5% range bonus, which is nothing compared to the effects of rifled/reinforced barrel. So removing it from shotguns wouldn't do much. Hidden hand? Personally not sure it's actually a problem. I think to address hidden hand would be to address aim assist in destiny as a whole. The lack of a constant level of aim assist across the board is the real dilemma and removing hidden hand won't fix that. Consider an eyasluna and a the devil you know with 50 and 81 aim assist, respectively. Obviously the devil you know has way more aim assist and I can tell you now it feels way more accurate as a result. Now suppose that the eyasluna has hidden hand but the devil you know does not. Hidden hand isn't exactly a tremendous buff, the eyasluna will feel a little more accurate but still no where near as much as the devil you know. And that is why removing hidden hand won't do much. If anything it may even be a bad thing. A lot of guns have really low aim assist and often feel a bit clunky, but rolling hidden hand could actually make them more usable.
