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Edited by bluewind333:
6/24/2016 10:36:30 PM
120
The "proof" that hunters are OP is flawed for 2 reasons
The "proof" bungie showed as their reasoning for hunters being OP is flawed and should not be accepted as complete. [b]FYI I am honestly completely fine with the changes I just don't completely see the reason for them.[/b]
1. The graph only shows 6v6 play-
I would be ok with just a 6v6 graph mainly because that is the majority of pvp but the fact that the graph only cherry-picked the 6v6 portion of the game makes one think: why would bungie leave out a signifiant portion of the pvp world(including trials)? The only reason I can think is that it may contradict the point that they are trying to show. I'd like to think bungie wouldn't do that but that is the only reason I can think of for them to leave out that information.
2. Bungie simply hasn't shown any cause-effect link between a class having a higher k/d and a class being OP.
Another reason for the statistics may honestly be that blade dancer and gunslinger appeal to better players. These sub-classes are high risk and high reward. In the gunslinger: throwing knifes make you take a very valuable split second of a gunfight to take a risk that then rewards skill with a great amount of damage (I do agree with the nerf that they shouldn't OHK but bungie did go a bit overboard). Golden gun grants no armor as a risk. If you ain't careful you can get sniped or receive a shotgun or fusion rifle to the back but if you can overcome this risk it becomes one of the best supers in the game. Because of this risk-reward trade off hunter may vary well not be an OP class but simply a class that is more appealing to good players. The way bungie set up their logic on this decision assumes players play all three classes. If people did play all three classes and the gunslinger/bladedancer was still ahead in k/d then it would obviously be overpowered but there are lots of players(and some very good players) who only play 1 class.
Summary:
All I'm really saying is looking a k/d alone isn't completely valid and I would like to see more numbers.
Edit 1: some of y'all had a good point that kd itself isn't a determiner of OPness. There are lots of other factors. Stats on kill by ability would also be nice to see(shoulder charge)
Edit 2: http://www.fastcodesign.com/3030529/infographic-of-the-day/hilarious-graphs-prove-that-correlation-isnt-causation/1
Edit 3: trending maybe we can get bungie to give us more numbers. Maybe even numbers that mean something
Edit 4: Dear people accusing me of being a salty hunter,
I am perfectly fine with the hunter nerfs as I have said above. You would know this if you had actually read the OP instead if simply copy-pasting something you saw on another post. I am simply trying to see bungie's logic behind the nerf given the info they have given us.
-bluewind333
English
#Destiny
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1 ReplyEdited by GTLargo21: 6/25/2016 11:56:34 PMThey chose the wrong numbers (excuse) to look at (come up with).
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1 ReplyAgreeable they didn't provide much data to the players, however Bungie has provided a charts, graphs, and even heat maps in the past of course not all at once. That being said I'm sure they could lay out all that data in front of players, and we'd still have a 12 year old or some such come along claiming the data doesn't support the changes and that it's unjust that they should suffer because some "scrub noob b!¥*h" can't adapt to something that "isn't OP". I'm not saying Bungie should or shouldn't provide the data however, but it's not as though it will change public opinion or the fact that Bungie is taking their time to carefully select what to adjust and how to adjust it.
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2 RepliesHunters were popular, not overpowered!
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4 RepliesYour kd is negative, so your argument is a invalid.
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3 RepliesYour argument is failing because you seem to lack some understanding of the nuances of statistics. Firstly we'll overlook the difference between things like proof and support, and we'll ignore the often over quoted statement about correlation, and we'll even disregard that most people being taught modern statistics are actually being taught to use p values in a manner they were not intended to be used. Instead, we'll simply go off the central limit theorem. Which states that the distribution of your data should approximate a normal distribution of the sample size is sufficient. Destiny has clocked something like twenty million players. So if we assume the playerbase is 1/20th of that, a probably conservative estimate, then can show support that we have a necessarily large sample. Now, without running any statistical analysis, the mean k/d of those subclasses appear to belong to a different distribution than the rest. Bungie is now testing the hypothesis that the abilities of those classes caused them to be significantly (the statistical definition of significantly) better than the others. Their experimental protocol is to adjust the abilities and monitor. If the nerf was too harsh, then they'll be buffed; see sunbreaker Titans. I'm happy to fault Bungie for many things, however they're approaching this fairly scientifically... Even if it is ruffling feathers. Don't like it? Don't play a role in the dataset. I.e. Don't play.
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1 ReplyAre you serious that stunted? That was just one graph. Bungie collects data literally down to every single bullet fired in PvP. Do you honestly think in the over two years of this game being out that they only had that ONE chart in data? I can explain very realistic hypotheses for why the bladedancer and gunslinger subclasses had a balancing issue that artificially augmented the "skill" of most of its users. Granted i do not have access to their meta data so unless they publish it all i can do is hypothesize. The biggest reasons of course that they had a very real edge in pvp over other classes boils down to the fact that the two subclasses had roaming supers and passive abilities that augmented gun performance. If all 9 subclasses went into a free for all match and had to start with nothing but guns and passive abilities (no grenades or melee charges) the bladedancer and gunslinger would perform better because their passive abilities can be tailored to enhance gun performance. On top of that, the two supers performed identically to regular gun or melee usage, meaning they required no specific learning curve or functionality mastery that was unique to their super to master them. The gunslinger gets to project out its super just like it fired a gun, and the bladedancer just like a regular melee. The bladedancer super in particular rewarded mindless button mashing. Admit it, you are just sad that the meritless status quo of the past two years has been shaken.
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2 RepliesBasically. The people that use those classes have the skill to pull that high k/d. Neither class is abused really.
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10 RepliesAnytime you make a post about classes and you're a hunter you get called a salty hunter. I don't know why, Titans and warlocks complain about hunters more than hunters complain in general.
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6 RepliesYep. And when people complained about Gunslinger it was about the super, not the knives or grenades. They [i]buffed[/i] the super. "We know what our community wants." They're all just nerf hungry PvP babies tho Bungo..
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1 ReplyThat graph was never supposed to be proof, it was only to give you an idea on why hunters were looked at. More stats than your conspiracy theorist brain could handle would of been checked for each subclasses perks and abilities befor coming up with the buffs and nerfs we see now. You could of read up on what goes into balancing in the time it took to write your post instead of moaning about it.
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Dude I suck, n I'm OP, hunters are way OP
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1 ReplyAccording to the graph, sunbreaker, defender and nightstalker need a buff or at the very least a rework. Funny since two of those have been nerfed though. I do believe that they may have had more graphs available but this particular one may have shown their evidence the way they wanted. Other graphs such as popularity graphs may have been detrimental to their reasoning which is why it wasn't shown.
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6 RepliesI cant say much about your second point just because I am lacking the knowledge and evidence. There isnt a way to confirm nor deny what you said. In a sense however you still win on that part because since most people use hunters they will give me a whole lot of negative feedback for anything I say there. I probably still will. As for your first point, I think when they say 6v6 at the top they are tracking the base modes such as control, clash, rift, salvage, etc. All of those are 6v6 playlists. (One other thing in relation to the statement of "high risk, high reward statement". I have played a bit with the hunter after this patch that came out and I have not detected that much risk personally.)
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Edited by kirin: 6/25/2016 8:21:16 PMThey really nerfed hunters because most of the player base mostly played as hunter. They are forcing people to choose new set ups, to do something that they would not normally do, to do something [i]different[/i]. They are making on play style less enjoyable while making another play style better than the others to force players who wish to be competitive in this game to use that play style. This is new and different for these players and is just a way to keep people interested without having to actually release new content that will keep people interested in the game.[spoiler]gotcha bungie.[/spoiler]
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1 ReplyWhat you need is..... [spoiler]Wolf Pack Rounds[/spoiler]
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3 RepliesI know it's anecdotal, but I played Titan for about a year and averaged bout .88 kd. When I started a hunter I went to 1.2 immediately. It's dropped a bit because I do bounties and play with guns most of the time rather than try hard but it's still notably higher than my warlock and Titan
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Add anther one. Basically class functions. Blade dancer and gunslinger are both single target DPS subs. And pvp is pretty well a series of single target engagements since player count is relating low and Zerg rushing isn't really a thing in destiny. Therefore by function gunslinger and blade dancer should be doing the job they were meant to do better than subs that were not made to preform that same task. Locks are AoE/multi target dps and are capable of greater overall DPS but less per target. Titans are more tanky with sun breaker being the closest to a dps. It is a mid ground between AoE/multi target and single target dps and also part tank. Thus it will not do any one of those functions better than the subs built specifically for that task, but will be very versatile.
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I wonder if the idea of maybe more players chose to play as hunters is the reason why the graph shows them as an over population... Idk but that graph is ummm...what's the word....bullsh@t!?!?
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I got like 44% ability kills on my titan and primary kills comes second. On my hunter i got like 34% primary kills and ability comes 3rd. Idk why they are basing their nerfs on KD.
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Maybe OP, in this instance, means over played. Maybe.
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9 RepliesWhat's funny is it will stay exactly the same. Better players tend to gravitate toward hunters.
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Always a hunter
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2 Repliesif you use a certain gun (bad juju) or grenade which may give me a super faster would not that have influence on said results? or maybe a certain class (hunter spec to obtain a faster super) is faster and more efficient for a certain class so therefore one will use it more...to me there are so many variables that may not account for this result thereby giving skewed results...it's like saying rich kids are smarter than poor kid only because the SAT results say so....because there is not large uptick in the graph but everything is somewhat parallel...a KD range of 1.00 to 1.06 could be the difference of a particular weapon or item is more efficient on a particular class....if it was 1.00 to 2.00+ then maybe (slight) it would sell better....so surely there must be other data than just this.
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1 ReplySorry, I can't take any argument seriously that at any point suggests that higher skill players are the reason. Most people can't be higher skill by definition.
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1 ReplyEdited by Darian: 6/24/2016 9:12:43 PMI just find it funny that almost everyone on the forums says k/d doesn't matter and who gives a shit about k/d but when Bungie posts a graph based off of k/d everyone agrees with it. Wtf lol
