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#feedback

Edited by Slain: 5/9/2016 3:56:21 PM
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Slain

"Whittle Down" weapon balancing, and how it destroys the game

Often times, people confuse balance with a spree of nerfs. Usually when there is an argument against nerfing, there is usually somebody who responds with "but it's balance". Let's make something crystal clear before I build Trump's Wall of Text...... [b]Balancing the sandbox does not entail going on a nerf spree.[/b] I like a balanced game, I really do. I appreciate the sandbox teams's dedication to balancing the scales of the crucible (because we all know you don't give a shit about PVE). But you're going about it all wrong, and I'll tell you why. When discussing balance, you often use the phrase "balancing the scales". This term sounds nice and innocent, but it is not at all representative of the way you actually go about balancing the game. Balancing the scales implies working towards a midpoint by taking from one side and adding to the other. Bungie, you're not balancing the scales. You're whittling everything down as if it were a bar of soap. If you think you're doing things well, I have a suggestion. Head over to a sander and try to make all of your fingers the same length by sanding them down little by little. You wouldn't like that, because you'd have stumps for fingers, even though they're relatively the same length. The same principle applies. You may have made weapons more balanced over time (if only a little), but you've reduced them to the point where they're a cut above super soakers. This beings me to my next point. Destiny is only slightly more balanced now then it was on day one. But it's come at a huge cost. You may have balanced your precious scales a little bit more, but you've destroyed the fun in the process, and you fail to realize it. You fail to realize it because you're so glued to your user data and your graphs that there have been nothing but blind eyes turned toward reality. Ah, user data. It seems like such an effective balancing tool. You can tell what's being used, how much it's being used. The only problem is, [b]that's all it tells you[/b]. It gives you no indication of how good the weapon is, or why it's being used in the first place. Yet you draw such conclusions from user data. You assume that (used too much) = (overpowered) = (needs to be nerfed). Clearly the concept of cause and effect eludes you. Example: auto rifles are nerfed. The nerf pushes people towards hand cannons. Hand cannons get nerfed. This nerf pushes people towards pulse rifles. Pulse rifles get nerfed. This nerf pushes people towards scout rifles. Did it not occur to you, any step of the way, that this is one big set of dominos? Clearly it didn't. You just kept whittling down. Furthermore, you blanket nerf an archetype based on one or two weapons. Often times, only a couple weapons were prominent, yet you nerfed an entire archetype, making that entire weapon class garbage based on a couple weapons. Another flaw in your thought process is that you only look at things in the short term. You always look at the latest balance patch and say "wow, the game is in a good place now". Well guess what, you said the same thing a year ago, except the game was fun back then. If you looked at the depreciation of the quality of weapons over time (something your excel graphs don't tell you), you'd be shocked. Go back and play the 1.1.1 build. [b][u]Perks[/b][/u] One of the biggest grievances I have with weapons in year 2 is perks. For starters, you nerfed almost every year 1 perk. You took every middle tree node and made it some tradeoff which, often times, takes more than it gives. Take for example the 'send it' perk. It used to increase range and accuracy. Now, it makes the weapon harder to handle and decreases reserve ammo. Why do you do this? Perks are supposed to boost weapon performance, but now they just give some and take more. And, a lot of these perks are absolute garbage. I'm talking about exhumed, surrounded, underdog, guerilla fighter, icarus, battle runner, hot swap. Legendary weapons might as well have one perk slot because it wouldn't make a difference most of the time. what's wrong with having good perks? Why should all of our time playing this game being rewarded with these shit perks, and no way of customizing them? [b][u]Exotics[/b][/u] Exotics have so much potential in Destiny. They can be the coolest, most fun to use, most effective gear in the game. But, you've butchered them. Most exotics really aren't that special, if at all. Boolean Gemini, Jade Rabbit, Hard Light, Fabian Strategy. These guns are worthless; there's no reason to equip them over some legendary. And some of the exotics that are actually good, have been nerfed. Take Thorn for example. Thorn is supposed to disengage the opponent from battle by preventing health regeneration, and allowing the wielder to track them behind walls. The weapon doesn't have to be damage focused; it can still be really good, and worth using. Now, it's not worth shit. It only disengages the opponent for about one addition second. what the -blam!- good is that? Exotics have the potential to be really good. There's nothing wrong with having weapons that are overpowered, but it only works if you have a wide variety of overpowered weapons. Instead, you have a wide variety of disappointing weapons. What's the point of having exotics in the game if you can't handle their existence, if you're just gonna treat them like garbage legendaries and punish them for being good? I hear a lot that overpowered weapons can't exist in crucible, that things like TLW and thorn make PVP broken. I'll tell you why you're wrong... The only reason weapons like Thorn and TLW stood out so much is because they were the only really powerful exotics. I guarantee you if you made other exotics just as powerful, you wouldn't have a problem, because you'd have variety. You'd have just as much variety as we have now, except you'd have a variety of good weapons instead of a variety of boring weapons. Another thing I hear a lot is that overpowered weapons break PVE content. Again, I'm gonna tell you why you're wrong... The reason gjallarhorn and black hammer destroyed Crota's End is because the mechanics were based entirely around dps. If a piece of content is so easily made trivial by a weapon, that's entirely on poor design. Take king's fall for example. King's fall is very well designed compared to the previous 2 raids (not saying it's better, just saying it's more intelligently designed). If you took gjallarhorn and black hammer (and hell even fatebringer) into King's Fall, not much difference would be made. You might kill ogres faster, but you wouldn't trivialize any mechanics. Let's talk about black hammer. do you know why black hammer was so good? Because enemies just stand there and beg you to shoot them in the head? Maybe if enemies weren't so stupid, this weapon would take some skill to use effectively. Yet you punish players for shitty design. The dismissal of such crucial details has destroyed the game. You can balance the game without nerfing everything that's good. You can alter weapon usage without nerfing the thing that's being used a lot. Your scorched earth policy has removed every bit of fun from this game. We're it not for how you've skinned weapons alive for no good reason, I would be enjoying destiny right now more than ever. The april update made the game rewarding, made it worth playing. But what good is it if, in a loot based game, the loot is such -blam!-ing garbage? This has been another Kabr complaining post. Thanks for reading.
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#feedback

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  • I agree 100% I remember when bungie said they are nerfing certain weapons so people will use other weapons! A complete ass backwards approach to making things right is why bungie has lost so much of its fan base and why they are getting so much [i][b]well deserved[/b][/i] flak! They have lost my trust and confidence and my money along with an estimated 20,000,000 others as well.

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  • Bungie needs to take a break and stop playing the Overwatch Beta long enough to play Warframe for 60-80 hours + so that they can get a sense of what PVE SHOULD be like. ANY weapon in Warframe can be made great with enough effort. And weapons in PVE become ridiculously overpowered. You have mods so you never have to worry about ammo, so you can use whatever weapon you want as much as you want in PVE. And guess what? ITS REALLY fun! Nobody cares about "balance" in PVE. Dreg's don't cry when you G-horn them for the 20 millionth time. And its NOT fun to spend 4-5 of your 14-17 rounds of sniper ammo just to kill a single T2 major! It's not fun running out of ammo all the time because your special weapons are so weak in PVE and carry so little ammo that you are constantly relying on your primary weapon to take out pretty much EVERYTHING in the game. Primary weapons in PVE? SUPER WEAK! My Hung Jury is 335. My overall light level on my main character is ~ 333. A headshot on a T2 major is around 2170 damage I think (just going off the top of my head). My throwing knife will hit for 6888 damage for a precision hit on the same enemy! THAT is how bad the primary weapons are! There is no balance in PVE because all weapons are equally crappy. Those so-called increased ammo drops don't really make up for the fact that we can't carry as much ammo as we used to. Remember the days when field scout increased your ammo reserve AND increased your magazine size? 27 round Mag for the VoC + 419 rounds in reserve? WITH Solar burn btw. Now THAT was fun. 13 round mag on Fatebringer was fun. 120 Rounds in reserve for viability? FUN! Firefly perk which, when triggered, would wipe out a horde of thrall/dregs in a single shot? FUN! Again, Elemental primaries during nightfalls? FUN! In PVE, they need to do MORE of what makes PVE FUN. And fully separate PVP from PVE so that they can do so and still work on balancing in PVP, which will likely always be a work in progress thanks to the rotating meta (IMO, rotating meta= blanket admission that they can't completely balance PVP anyways...)

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    • Post is spot on. Too bad Bungie won't even read it.. They're destroying a wonderful game slowly piece by piece by handling stuff like this and by not separating PVE and pvp. It's like having a beautiful classic car. But slowly adding custom mods to it that only makes it uglier and worse..

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    • I think it was absolutely necessary to have nerfs. I think being one of the developers of Halo... Bungie wants to have a PvP that actually requires gunskill. They don't want a CoD type feel where "if I see you first and I have thumbs... you're dead." No. I think their main goal is to give people a chance to counter other players by making the TTK a bit slower than a 2 headshot thorn at .40 seconds... or a 2 tap TLW at .36 seconds. Of course, it was their fault in the beginning to realize that these weapons were in fact way too fast TTK... but nonetheless, I think where they are at with weapon balancing is pretty solid. Although the doctrine, you need no skill to use. That should be next on the drawing board..

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      • Edited by Lil Guard Duck: 5/10/2016 8:59:36 PM
        I only want to say... Hardlight doesn't suck. It's recoil is a bit too strong to dominate in PvP, but it has NO DAMAGE FALLOFF. This means if you pump a whole mag into a big fat Cabal at 100 yards, it does the same as if you did it at point blank. Try it. Go on patrol, get into a set location, shoot a few shots into a dreg or vandal at long range with another medium RoF auto, then do the same with Hardlight. MUCH more damage per hit, and if you test it from close range, you'll see it does the same as a regular medium auto. Considering Autorifles had their range nerfed in year 2, this makes Hardlight the BEST PvE autorifle, and still decent in PvP. I remember when they announced it, everyone thought there was some kind of misunderstanding when they said "Hardlight projectiles do not have damage falloff..." I knew exactly what they were saying, but I didn't believe they'd do it. They did. Hardlight breaks the rules of autorifles. It was my first, and favorite, exotic, now even better in year 2. It will always have a place in my guradian's inventory! No vault for you, good ol' HL!

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      • It's hard to take the many 'nerfs have destroyed the game!' posts seriously, even when they're well written (as this one is), because they never acknowledge the buffs that Bungie has applied. As you say, balance is taking away from one thing and giving to another, so that they get evened out. That's EXACTLY what Bungie has done. Played with a high ROF auto rifle lately? Or voidwalker? How have they changed since year 1? If you don't think the buffs have balanced the nerfs, make that case, but pretending that the buffs simply don't exist is disingenuous. Also, if the game is destroyed, with all respect, I wonder why you still play as often as you do, including as recently as last night.

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        • If I wanted to run around dying in 1-2 shots from every weapon in the game I'd play COD. This game is not designed around extremely high TTK primary weapons. That's why we're slowly seeing this gradual downturn of damage. That's why pvp in this game was no fun at all to me in Y1 and you will never convince me otherwise.

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          • I totally agree on the raid sentence, KF is a far more intelligent raid than previous ones as a whole, and I found it to be a massive improvement (not to state that older raids are lesser, I still love a VoG). However, that is where my agreement ends. I find that exotics are not as powerful as they should be, according to people on the internet, but I've never known an exotic to be useless; each one is made for a very specific situation or set of enemies (Fabian Strategy is great against a horde of thralls in close range, but it's not something you would use against a solo boss, and conversely Gally isn't really the best point blank weapon for a large group of fast enemies in your face). I do think that exotics have gotten noticeably weaker, but I don't necessarily dislike that. Now, I don't have to go into every piece of content with a Gally on (the optimizer in me means I have to use the best weapon I have in every situation possible). Speaking on nerfs/buffs/balance, IMPO Bungie has done a stellar job as far as balance is concerned. Nerfs have, of course, shifted the way that people use weapons, as they always will! But I have never seen Bungie release a patch with a nerf that I considered unfair or uncalled for (I may have been disappointed, because I was using the OP before to my advantage though). [b]TL;DR:[/b] Crota's End wasn't that great; VoG was good but KF was better. Keep doing what you're doing Bungie, I will always support balance before OP weapons. [i]P.S. I hope Thorn disappears into the darkness forever, that was the most OP weapon of all time in Y1.[/i]

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            • The only weapons that should have been allowed in pvp are the ones from the crucible quatermaster and lord shaxx armour. Exotics should not have been allowed in either weapon or armour. The only way to achieve balance is to truncate the available.. sometimes you have to save the community from its self. At first i was against srperation of pvp and pve but now that seems to be the way for balance. The infectious disease ( c.o.d players)that has come into destiny has turned a fun game into a disaster and bungie listen to them.

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            • Why have they nerfed vex AND left it in year one? There's no replacement weapons for us to go after. So why did they do that? That weapon was FUN. a great reward. Now it's gone? Not just gone - they totally fucjing buried it. Changed its perks and stability then left it at 160 light. Really? In PVE? Why would they do that?!

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            • [b][/b]

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            • It's an issue with Bungie's philosophy at this point. As you say, they are concerned with numbers rather than that AND the community as the Bungie of old cared about. They have psychologists and sociologists and the likes on the team- we saw the job ads years ago. And their jobs are presumably to keep as many people playing while maximizing profit. It has essentially turned into 'how far can we push people without them leaving.' They have it down to a science. So these issues you preach to Bungie, thread maker? I'm not saying they are invalid- on the contrary, even. But Bungie no longer places value on the will of their fanbase. Add this in with the fact that Bungie has opted for an ever changing meta rather than a stable balanced meta (to keep things 'fresh' every few months) and we have two core philosophies turning the game into a boring, generic shooter bit by bit with players still eating it up because Bungie knows how far they can push people and maximize profit. Folks can blame Activision all they want. But Bungie chose this. And Bungie has acted very poorly towards their community and their own employees (I have Marty in mind) in the last few years. I don't blame people like Cozmo or Deej for this necessarily, but management. But it's the world we live in. And no matter how badly we wish these philosophies to change, they simply won't until people change their habits. Because that's all Bungie cares about anymore. Not the public goodwill. Not the praise. Just the numbers. With which they are very, very careful with.

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              • You couldn't be more correct. That was perfect. And when you talked about perks that are useless, it just reminds me of TLW. I'm not sure if bungie even understands what the exotic perk is on this weapon. Hip firing brings more stability and impact. Yet now, the best way to use the gun is to ADS, which in my opinion isn't much fun. I ran TLW is year 1 quite a bit, simply because I love handcannons and I wasn't good with thorn. I was actually quite atrocious with thorn. I even ran TLW when it was pulse rifle meta, just because I like the mechanics of hip firing the weapons super fast. Now the hip fire doesn't do much. If you watch streamers like Real Kraftyy or Nghtly, who are very very good with this weapon, they even ADS it now. I think Kraftyy even uses a hawkmoon now because he can't stand the hit detection on hip fire after the update. I think the game has improved from the start of year two, but in no way is it as fun as when I started playing in year one. I remember when I first started playing crucible and TLW was being outgunned by pulses like the messenger, but now slow firing pulses don't compete (atleast in 3v3), and now that hit detection is subpar with hand cannons, 90% of people have moved to doctrine. If a guy is running at me with a shotgun, its hard to counter without using doctrine these days. I still occasionally run a lord high fixer, but I play a different style with that, knowing i'm gonna have to shoot a couple extra shots even though my crosshairs are on his chin. Theres just a lot of issues that need to be fixed, and honestly I thought MELEE HIT DETECTION was on the bottom of the damn list.

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              • The best way to balance a fun weapon is with another fun weapon. Unfortunately, what Bungie has chosen to do is play whack a mole where they nerf an entire archetype to the point it's not really viable, which makes players find the next best thing. Rinse and repeat until you end up where we are now with weapons being the blandest they've ever been. IMO, the people in charge of weapon design and balance just need to go.

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                • Edited by Razzupaltuff: 5/9/2016 5:24:56 PM
                  I was just listening to the latest #destinytruthcast, and while I was listening to it, I came back to thinking about [b]What is the real problem here?[/b] The real problem here is that Bungie is taking more fun out of Destiny with almost every change they make to this game, and that very obviously there is nothing that could make them change their mind, and ways about it. I have to say that I am still stumped about the actual reasons behind this. Which leads us to a related problem: Bungie never really talks with their community. There is no exchange, no talking off the record to the community. There is no real insight into what they are doing, and most of all why they are doing it. All that Bungie does is talk [b]at[/b] the community, pushing their newest ideas into its faces "love it or leave it" style (because "change it" is not an option with Bungie). What Bungie is doing to Destiny is puzzling a lot of players, including me. It is obvious that they are taking the essence of what makes a game worthwhile out of it, and that is having fun when playing it. It is pretty obvious that many of the changes Bungie is making do not have the effect they are claiming they should have, while affecting other areas of the game negatively. When looking at how Bungie keeps screwing up guns for the sake of PvP "balance", I am wondering whether Bungie doesn't fully understand statistial correlations. Just look at their PvP bias. Did they base these on PvP vs. PvE player numbers/play time? If so, did they ever consider that people may be switching from PvE to PvP because PvE is less and less fun? Don't start with CoE please, CoE and House of Judgment guns simply aren't worth it, since there have been and are better vendor guns and regular legendary drops. Personally, I just play it because it is a pretty fast way to get more 335 guns (of which I am having over 40 already) and gear. But is completionism a good reason to play a game that otherwise isn't really fun to play? Rather not. Unfortunately, since Bungie is never revealing to us what is really going on inside the company, all we can do is speculate. I suppose that some of the following may be a part of the problems this game has: Limited budget, limited insight into what would make Destiny a good (a.k.a. fun to play) game, and a great deal of stubborness making the decision makers at Bungie insist on their concepts of the game, no matter how broken they are and how bad they are working out. I think the Destiny community needs to face the fact that all their efforts to make Bungie move Destiny in a good direction have been wasted, and so will be all future efforts. Bungie does not want to listen. Bungie does not want to make a clean cut and make the necessary changes to make Destiny a truly fun game. As I said above: There can only be speculation why is that so, since Bungie doesn't really talk with the community. I am therefore not talking to Bungie anymore. I am talking to you, the Destiny players. The only way for you to get a good shooter game is to find another one. You are wasting your time and energy on a product that will never be turned into what it could be. [b]TL;DR: Do yourselves a favor: go find another game - one that is worthwhile - and forget Destiny.[/b]

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                  • Edited by ghostx78x: 5/11/2016 10:53:28 AM
                    Every. Word. So. Logical. Hurts. Except for the part about Jade Rabbit. Dont be taking about my Jade Rabbit.

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                  • Edited by Erijian: 5/10/2016 12:37:25 AM
                    You can't expect Bungie to balance the scales on their first balance attempts, especially when they outright admitted the time to kills were too high for what they wanted and they're trying to balance everything around slower kill times. That alone put them pretty far back on balancing the game, which was influenced even further by damage fall-off being an absolute joke for the longest time. They've finally hit a point where damage fall-off puts weapons in a designated role, kill times are around where they want, and weapons feel relatively balanced aside from a few outliers. If the game was like this from launch, they'd probably have everything figured out by now.

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                    • I'll disagree on the Jade Rabbit. Best PvP Scout Rifle of its archetype, because it allows for a bodyshot, instead of needing 3 HS. 0.8 TTK is also faster than Mida, but less forgiving. After Y2 came out, the Jade Rabbit was actually the gun that reminded me the most of Y1 HCS.

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                    • Edited by TheMaestroNoob: 5/10/2016 2:07:31 PM
                      Akay! let's buff everything! Let every gun do the letal headshots! One bullet with Doctrine in your head and you are dead! I know that you want this!

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                      • Beautiful

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                      • Another whiny post about not having God like weapons. The game is already easy enough in PvE. And in PvP your basic argument is instead of just being unfairly killed by prenerf Thron and TLW (that any noob could use without any skill) lets make more weapons ridiculously powerful so you get unfairly killed by lots of weapons....YAY. PvP would turn into a type of weapons Mayham where anyone could easily get tons of kills without any real skill or strategy. I find it so amusing when players that haven't spent a day in their lives developing a game or know anything about game development pretend to know what they are talking about and demand that Bungie developers listen to their ignorant rantings and implement their ridiculous ideas.

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                        • in all of your points you constantly failed to note of all of the times they buffed things too. ARs have gotten nerfed, then buffed, then buffed, then tweaked (a buff and a nerf). PRs got buffed, then enrfed, then buffed again. HCs got nerfed, then tweaked, then buffed. SRs got.... buffed only once, i think? plenty has been buffed too, dont ignore ALL of the facts (like you accuse bungie of doing).

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                          • I strongly disagree with what you are saying. for me and many other players a balanced pvp environment can best be identified by the weapon variety. as of right now, the crucible is in the best state it has ever been in. whenever i check people's weapons choices before a match i usually see at least 4 different primaries on a 6 man team. sometimes even more than that. before the update there were literally only 4 weapons to be found (mida, TLW, Thorn and doctrine). it was horrible - as was the thorn/tlw meta. you see people don't care how you achieve the goal of a balanced crucible. whether you nerf or buff weapons doesn't really matter does it? the outcoming result is what matters. And in this regard bungie did a very decent job with the update. As long as you don't have to compete on the highest level (e.g. last 3-4 matches on a ToO ticket) you can play every single weapon class now and will be at least able to compete. Low rate AR's and PR's are back, Fusion Rifles are now a blast. Shotguns are as good as ever - same with snipers. i got to tell you i have been complaining about the weapon balance in pvp since the release but as of right now i can truly say: i am happy with weapon balance/variety in pvp. Now is the first time since launch that i can pull almost every weapon from my vault and have fun with it. That is how it is supposed to be.

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                            • Love it! Now, if Bungie would not only read, but COMPREHEND what you are saying, we'd be playing a very different game.

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