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2/14/2010 4:54:56 AM
284
Unequal Size, Health, Speed, and Shields. Spartans vs Elites. w/Proof.
EDIT: This is a direct quote from the new weekly update.
[quote]The differences between the two species character models and unique health, shield, and speed attributes are significant enough to call into question whether or not the mixture could ever be considered fair.
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This is pulled from a discussion of Arena, the new highly competative playlist for Halo Reach. This playlist is designed such that all possible random factors that can affect a game are removed so that it is all about individual's skills. What I want to focus on is the fact that the Spartans and Elites have different health, shields, and speed attributes.
I was on to something when I started this thread. Not only are the Elites taller, but they have different health levels, shields, and speed than the Spartans. Who is better? No idea. I imagine they are balanced such that neither will dominate every situation. That is what I want to discuss. Who do you think will be faster, have better shields, or more health? The rest of my original post with the few edits I made is below. Please read it.
EDIT: I am NOT trying to complain about Elites being taller then Spartans. I think it is awesome. I just thought it might be interesting if there was some kind of balancing effect that made playing an Elite, who is now a bigger target, worth while. Read the rest of the post and comment.
As I am sure most of you have already heard, Spartans and Elites will be in Multiplayer. This raises a rather interesting question.
Unlike in previous Halo games, the Elites in Halo Reach are going to be as they were ment to be from the beginning. They are taller and more bulky then humans.
Just look at this picture... Lone Wolf is like 1-2 feet off the ground, and the Elites knees are bent slightly. Lone Wolf's head is barely above the Elite. If they stood side by side, the Elite would be at least 1 foot taller...
[url]http://www.bungie.net/projects/reach/images.aspx?c=59&i=24488[/url]
EDIT: Bungie has already said that the Elites will not be shrunk or resized for multiplayer. The Elites are going to be bigger then the Spartans. That was said by BUNGIE and not me. I would have a link to the podcast but it is broken.
What does this mean?
Should you play as an Elite in MP, you will be taller and have a larger proflie then those who play as Spartans...
This is rather interesting...
No one would play as an Elite because of their size unless there were to be some kind of benefit...
Ahhh. Now we are on to something.
EDIT PART 1: Below is my original idea about the SIIIs in Reach. Now that we know they are in Mark V armor, we know the SIIIs are at least as tall as SIIs and at most they are as strong as SIIs, although I hold onto the fact that an SII would win in a fight against an SIII every time even if they had the same armor. Don't forget, SIIIs are a cheaper SII program. Yes, they had more advanced augmentations and training, but they were not trained as long and did not recieve as much augmentation as SIIs did. They originaly had cheaper armor, but Noble team is cool so they got Mark V.
EDIT PART 2:Remember back when the SIIs were augmented. Halsey said that they were much stronger and faster than anyone had thought they would be. They were soo strong that they would never have a problem witht the Mark V suite or stronger ones in the future. Their augmentations were more then sufficient to allow them to use the Mark V armor. People claim that since SIIIs can use Mark V armor that they are as strong as SIIs. This is not true. SIIs were stronger then they needed to be. SIIIs are strong enough to use Mark V armor, but they are not as strong as SIIs. Recap: SIIIs are as tall as SIIs when they are in Mark V armor, and SIIIs are almost as strong as SIIs but not quite.
Elites are 8 foot 6 inches tall. Spartan IIs are 7 feet tall. Spartan IIIs are shorter then Spartan IIs by at least 6 inches. So Elites are 1 foot taller then Spartan IIIs and they are bigger around as well. They have more mass.
Elites are equally matched in strength with Spartan IIs. Spartan IIIs are not as strong as Spartan IIs. Elites are Stronger then Spartan IIIs.
With that being said... Will being an Elite give you some kind of advantage over being a Spartan III? Will Elites have some kind of melee bonus, or will they run a little faster or slower?
All this is rather interesting to think about. In Halo 2 and Halo 3, Bungie made the Elites the same general size as Spartan IIs so that they would be balanced for MP, but in Reach they specificaly said that the Elites were going to be bigger then the Spartan IIIs like they are supposed to be. As we can all see from the new ViDoc, Bungie has delivered on that promise.
This could add yet another dimention to online MP...
If the Elites are a little stronger and get a bonus to their melee damage, then what bonus do you get as a Spartan III? Maybe Spartan IIIs can jump higher or run a little faster...
EDIT: Another possibility that a lot of people have been throwing around is a new game mode where it is Elites vs Spartan IIIs. This could be really fun. If it is taken one step further and made into Covenant vs UNSC where both sides spawn only with weapons and vehicles from their own race. That would be cool.
I only know 2 things: the Elites are bigger then the Spartan IIIs, and the Elites are playable in MP. The rest is sperculation.
Ask yourslef this one question. Would you pick the Elites just for their looks and in turn make yourself a bigger target? MY answer is no. If they had some kind of bonus that could negate the downside of being a bigger target then I would probly not even have a second thought about being an Elite.
Want more evidence? I got it now! [url]http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?type=news&cid=25011[/url] Pause the video at exactly 1:08. A Spartan and an Elite are standing right next to eachother. The Elite is taller...
[Edited on 03.24.2010 10:57 AM PDT]
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I win. Elites are bigger.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] SPARTAN G2525 I don't really care what advantages the elites have the spartans still kill hundreds of elites on average per person[/quote] Indeed, but that is only because they are controlled by a simple AI. In the books, Elites kick butt and even give Spartans a run for their money.
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I don't really care what advantages the elites have the spartans still kill hundreds of elites on average per person
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Moldy Pepper Your not going to be able to vs another species, it will either be Spartan VS Spartan or Elite VS Elite. An exception to that would be the Invasion gametypes which you could just not play if you didn't want to.[/quote] There are those who believe that some gametypes or playlists will be just like we have now where it has teams that are mixed based on the preferences of the people on those teams. Anyone who wants to be an Elite can be an Elite, and anyone who wants to be a Spartan can be a Spartan. I doubt they will get rid of that completely.
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Your not going to be able to vs another species, it will either be Spartan VS Spartan or Elite VS Elite. An exception to that would be the Invasion gametypes which you could just not play if you didn't want to.
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So... Any thoughts or rumors on what playlists and game types will have Spartans mixed with Elites vs Spartans mixed with Elites? We know Invasion is Spartans vs Elites and there is a Spartans vs Elites game type and that Arena is either Spartans vs Spartans only or also includes Elites vs Elites. What else?
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] xReconAssassinX If anything is "unfair" in the Beta, Bungie will fix it, that's the point of the Beta, to find Bugs or things that don't work correctly.[/quote] Of course, but they have added a lot of variety to Halo Reach that they want to keep.
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If anything is "unfair" in the Beta, Bungie will fix it, that's the point of the Beta, to find Bugs or things that don't work correctly.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Larsirius NOTE: When reading through this, I noticed that my tone is rather hostile, and that was not my intention, I apologize. FYI, OP: S-IIIs are not inferior to the S-IIs. Not by strength, not by speed, not by agility. The S-IIIs are inferior when they wear the SPI Armor, which Noble Team doesn't; they are wearing the MJONLIR Mark V, the same armor worn by Master Chief in Halo: CE, as stated by Urk in the Bungie Weekly Update on January 29th. Jorge, who is pretty damn big, is only 10 cm taller than the tallest S-III of Noble Team, and the difference between all of the S-IIIs on said team are about 5 cm maximum, if you count Kat out, who is the only Spartan on the team who is lower than 2 meters tall. This fact can be ruled out as individual differences, rather than differences between S-IIs and S-IIIs in general. The S-IIIs were given the same, but improved, augmentations that the S-IIs were given, and because of this they were able to expand the genepool from which the candidates were selected. The S-IIIs were trained by both a Spartan-II, Kurt ("Ambrose"), and the original Spartan-II trainer, Chief Petty Officer Mendez. The former also improved upon the training regime that were used to train the S-IIs. There are no indications that the S-IIIs we read about in Ghost of Onyx(which, at the time, were younger than the S-IIs were when they first were sent on a mission) are inferior to the S-IIs in any way, except the MJOLNIR, which were deemed to expensive to send on suicide missions. Two final arguments: the S-IIIs were sent on missions deemed to dangerous even for the S-II, and they succeeded in everyone, at a high cost, however. Would they be able to do this if they were inferior to the S-IIs in any way? At an average three years younger than the S-IIs when they were sent on a mission to capture the Insurrectionist, Colonel Watts, the S-IIIs took down high value targets, on extremely high risk missions, with ridiculous odds in favor of the Covenant, and they did this without backup, and without the MJOLNIR. Again, not as strong as the S-IIs? Inferior? And one last tidbit: Kelly, the fastest Spartan-II, commented that one of the S-IIIs might be as fast as her. The only thing that the S-IIIs don't have, at least not at the age which the S-IIIs we've read about were, were the machine-like battle mentality of the S-IIs. The S-IIs never allowed feelings to jeopardize their own safety, or the mission, whereas the S-IIIs were prone to go for petty revenge, even when still at risk. As the Master Chief put it several times in the Fall of Reach, it's the last part of the mission when you let your guard down that's dangerous. But considering how the members of Noble Team have survived time and time again, they seem to have controlled these outbreaks. If there are anything that you can think of that is not an personal interpretation of the facts, that states that the S-IIIs are inferior to the S-IIs in some way, I'll be happy to discuss it, and look it up in the books or whatever source you've drawn the information from. [/quote] I guess I should have been more clear in my OP. I was talking aboput how SIIIs were not as good because they had cheaper armor, less training, and not as extensive augmentations. The training they got was better, and the augmentations were more advanced and gave almost the same effect, but the SIIs would allways win in a fight because of their armor. Both are amazing and in a strait hand to hand fight it would come down to skill, which the SIIs had. These SIIIs in Reach are as close to an SII as anyone can get, but the SIIs are still better. SIIIs get the suicide missions because the SIIs are too valuable to be thrown away. SIIIs are a fire and forget weapon.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] jopus I agree with ya. The brutes are supposed to be taller than elites right?[/quote] If I remember correctly, the Brutes are slightly taller, but mainly they have a lot more mass. They are very bulky with thick arms, legs, and necks.
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NOTE: When reading through this, I noticed that my tone is rather hostile, and that was not my intention, I apologize. FYI, OP: S-IIIs are not inferior to the S-IIs. Not by strength, not by speed, not by agility. The S-IIIs are inferior when they wear the SPI Armor, which Noble Team doesn't; they are wearing the MJONLIR Mark V, the same armor worn by Master Chief in Halo: CE, as stated by Urk in the Bungie Weekly Update on January 29th. Jorge, who is pretty damn big, is only 10 cm taller than the tallest S-III of Noble Team, and the difference between all of the S-IIIs on said team are about 5 cm maximum, if you count Kat out, who is the only Spartan on the team who is lower than 2 meters tall. This fact can be ruled out as individual differences, rather than differences between S-IIs and S-IIIs in general. The S-IIIs were given the same, but improved, augmentations that the S-IIs were given, and because of this they were able to expand the genepool from which the candidates were selected. The S-IIIs were trained by both a Spartan-II, Kurt ("Ambrose"), and the original Spartan-II trainer, Chief Petty Officer Mendez. The former also improved upon the training regime that were used to train the S-IIs. There are no indications that the S-IIIs we read about in Ghost of Onyx(which, at the time, were younger than the S-IIs were when they first were sent on a mission) are inferior to the S-IIs in any way, except the MJOLNIR, which were deemed to expensive to send on suicide missions. Two final arguments: the S-IIIs were sent on missions deemed to dangerous even for the S-II, and they succeeded in everyone, at a high cost, however. Would they be able to do this if they were inferior to the S-IIs in any way? At an average three years younger than the S-IIs when they were sent on a mission to capture the Insurrectionist, Colonel Watts, the S-IIIs took down high value targets, on extremely high risk missions, with ridiculous odds in favor of the Covenant, and they did this without backup, and without the MJOLNIR. Again, not as strong as the S-IIs? Inferior? And one last tidbit: Kelly, the fastest Spartan-II, commented that one of the S-IIIs might be as fast as her. The only thing that the S-IIIs don't have, at least not at the age which the S-IIIs we've read about were, were the machine-like battle mentality of the S-IIs. The S-IIs never allowed feelings to jeopardize their own safety, or the mission, whereas the S-IIIs were prone to go for petty revenge, even when still at risk. As the Master Chief put it several times in the Fall of Reach, it's the last part of the mission when you let your guard down that's dangerous. But considering how the members of Noble Team have survived time and time again, they seem to have controlled these outbreaks. If there are anything that you can think of that is not an personal interpretation of the facts, that states that the S-IIIs are inferior to the S-IIs in some way, I'll be happy to discuss it, and look it up in the books or whatever source you've drawn the information from. [Edited on 03.23.2010 4:01 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Acknown3 I'm going to be playing as an Elite, but why? I will because I have always played as an Elite ever since H2. I think that the Elites have a much cooler background, history, etc. than Spartans. Because of their bigger size (to fit canon), and following Sangheili lore, Elites would have both better shields, health, but the speed is questionable. If "ladders" are in Halo Reach, Elites are physically at a disadvantage to climbing ladders because of their "reversed" feet.[/quote]Dont make me throw a ladder at u.
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I'm going to be playing as an Elite, but why? I will because I have always played as an Elite ever since H2. I think that the Elites have a much cooler background, history, etc. than Spartans. Because of their bigger size (to fit canon), and following Sangheili lore, Elites would have both better shields, health, but the speed is questionable. If "ladders" are in Halo Reach, Elites are physically at a disadvantage to climbing ladders because of their "reversed" feet.
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but these sIII's had armour that the sII's had which is mk5,which makes them relatively the same [Edited on 03.23.2010 2:57 PM PDT]
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I agree with ya. The brutes are supposed to be taller than elites right?
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] hypodermik Spartans iii's are not weaker than sii's. They had better augmentations and they had a 100% survival rate [url=http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Project_CHRYSANTHEMUM]Proof[/url][/quote] Their augmentations were more advanced, but didn't make them stronger. They also had armor that was not as strong. An SII and an SIII fighting hand to hand might be pretty closely matched, but put them in their own armor and an SII wins every time. The SIIs are bigger, stronger, and faster than SIIIs.
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Spartans iii's are not weaker than sii's. They had better augmentations and they had a 100% survival rate [url=http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Project_CHRYSANTHEMUM]CHRYSANTHEMUM[/url] [url=http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/SPARTAN-III_Program]Spartan III Program[/url] [Edited on 03.23.2010 2:48 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] AMDouglas wait, whats spartan IIs and spartan IIIs? can someone gimme a link further explaining who they are and what they do?[/quote] Spartan IIs are Master Chief and the other original Spartans. Spartan IIIs are like a cheaper version of the Spartan IIs designed to be a fire and forget weapon. They have close to the same strengths and abilities as Spartan IIs but not as good of armor. Read Halo: Ghosts of Onyx. It will tell you the specifics.
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Spartans vs elites confirmed
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] nintenman7 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] xAssault12x Just look at this picture... Lone Wolf is like 1-2 feet off the ground, and the Elites knees are bent slightly. Lone Wolf's head is barely above the Elite. If they stood side by side, the Elite would be at least 1 foot taller... [url]http://www.bungie.net/projects/reach/images.aspx?c=59&i=24488[/url] [/quote] As it should be. Hopefully Bungie can figure out which strengths and weaknesses to apply to each race, then the mixture can happen.[/quote] I think the Elites will get more strength, stronger shields, and more health, while the Spartans get to be faster and have more efficient shields that recharge faster.
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wait, whats spartan IIs and spartan IIIs? can someone gimme a link further explaining who they are and what they do?
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I think that Spartans have more health whereas Elites have more shields. I think this because in the vidocs and multiplayer trailer you can see that spartans have 16 little blocks of health. Yet the elites only have 9 and the shield bar looks thicker at some parts. Perhaps your right about speed and strength differences but there unfortunately isn't enough information to prove it. ~CM [Edited on 03.23.2010 2:32 PM PDT]
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Ghost Bn [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Nosferatu486 [quote][b]Posted by:[/b] TheCyberFreak Everyone's assuming that Elites will be mixed into matchmaking the same way they have been for past Halo games. I believe if Elites are to be in matchmaking that it will be part of the new game mode Bungie has refered to in the past. Maybe some type of [i]Covenant vs UNSC[/i] game. If this is the case then the Elite models don't need to be scaled down to the same size as Spartans, the game just needs to somehow be balanced between the two factions. [/quote] THIS. if you watch the Multiplayer Trailer, notice how the ONLY time you see Elites are in the Spartan vs. Elites or Invasion sections. meaning = Elites are only playable in certain playlists. how many Elites do you see in the Arena section of the trailer? none, if i remember correctly...[/quote] Did you read the Last update?.. I guess not..It clearly states that Elites are in arena..but Elites and Spartans are segregated..and only Sometimes (if at all) they be mixed up..otherwise its Spartan on Spartan and Elite on Elite.. Deal with it..why complain any longer?[/quote] The Elites will be in almost all playlists, if not all. Arena will only be Spartans vs Spartans or Elites vs Elite. All other playlist will have Spartans and Elites in them in either a Spartan vs Elite style or mixed. Arena and perhaps only 1 or 2 more playlists or game types will have only Spartans vs Spartans and Elites vs Elites. When I say mixed, I mean it will be Spartans and Elites vs Spartans and Elites.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Helveck To be honest, I think we'll see a pretty even match in terms of balance regardless of the model or attributes for each character. And plus, I think it would add to the realism in MP in terms of feeling more cannon when you're fighting Elites that are actually BUILT like Elites, not shrunk down, hunched over, etc... Might I add, I think an Elite armor ability should be, you press a button and your Elite screams, "WORT WORT WORT!!!" I'm obviously kidding, but it'd be priceless anyway.[/quote] lol. I want that! I would love to scream WORT WORT WORT while I was Tbagging somebody. lol.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] xAssault12x Just look at this picture... Lone Wolf is like 1-2 feet off the ground, and the Elites knees are bent slightly. Lone Wolf's head is barely above the Elite. If they stood side by side, the Elite would be at least 1 foot taller... [url]http://www.bungie.net/projects/reach/images.aspx?c=59&i=24488[/url] [/quote] As it should be. Hopefully Bungie can figure out which strengths and weaknesses to apply to each race, then the mixture can happen.
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[quote][b]Posted by:[/b] Wounded Elite Glad to see that Bungie is redesigning the Elite physique without having to worry about balancing the hitboxes. Halo 3 Elites were fat and clumsy, like they ate all the pies. Reach Elites look like they have slimmed down, and therefore appear more lithe and agile.[/quote] lol. The fat fat fatties, the Elites, are very awesomeness in Reach.
