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#feedback

Edited by Slain: 4/5/2016 2:14:35 AM
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Slain

Removing Elemental Primaries Exemplifies Bungie's Lazy Approach to Solving Problems

In any game, issues arise which call for some form of change. Destiny is no exception. Throughout Destiny's life cycle, weapon balance and investment systems have seen several forms, each the result of a very basic means of solving problems: taking the lazy way out. Weapons aren't balanced? Something is being used more than everything else? [b]Nerf it![/b] Sunbreaker titans seem really powerful in comparison to some weak-ass subclasses? [b]Nerf it![/b] Elemental primaries alter the way players choose which weapons to use? [b]Get rid of them![/b] Problem solved, right? Almost every time an issue such as these has arisen in Destiny, the Bungie solution has been to nerf it or remove it from the game. While some balance is achieved in the process, what is also achieved is a scorched earth policy. Everything fun or useful in the game has always been and always will be targeted. Over three big weapons patches, the level of balance in the game has only increased slightly, if at all. What the weapon patches serve to do more than "balance" the game is to pick what people like to use and destroy it. Sure, weapons are somewhat more equal after a patch, but they are "equally shitty", as Draken Wolfe says. Why can't we have weapons that are equally good, equally useful, and equally fun to use? We could, if Jon Weisnewski and the Wrecking Crew didn't make the following [b]completely unnecessary[/b] moves: -nerfing almost every year 1 perk -replacing most middle tree nodes with useless tradeoffs which hinder use of the weapon rather than boost it, as the word "perk" would suggest -nerfing auto rifles because an Iron Banner bounty forced people to use them "too much" -nerfing hand cannons as a result of the meta shift following the auto rifle nerf -nerfing pulse rifles as a result of the meta shift following the hand cannon nerf - *inevitably* nerfing scout rifles as the result of the meta shift following the pulse rifle nerf -nerfing fusions over and over and over and over and over again because some guy in the studio knows how to use them -introducing perks like exhumed, replenish, icarus, surrounded, underdog, guerrilla fighter, last resort, army of one, etc in order to make good perks rare as shit -nerfing Gjallarhorn because your shitty boss design made it effective -nerfing Ice Breaker because your shitty boss design made it effective -nerfing Black Hammer because your shitty boss design made it effective Every one of these could have have been avoided, had you exercised a little brain power once in a while. Do you know why weapons like Ice Breaker and Black Hammer were really good? Because bosses in Destiny just stand there and beg you to shoot them in the head. But instead of making the enemies less -blam!-ing stupid, you make the weapon useless. Way to go, sandbox team. The same principle applies to Luke Smith's ass-hatted decision to remove elemental primaries from the game. [quote]They had the distinct and undesirable property of limiting a broad weapon sandbox to a few weapons[/quote] This is true. Having elements on primaries not only incentivized playing endgame activities, but also set those weapons apart from others. Playing these activities gave you a form of advantage when burns were active. Without endgame weapons having any quality that vendor weapons don't have, how does removing this added bonus achieve anything good? It makes raid weapons essentially just infusion trash, especially when you give them garbage perks and heavily randomize their quality. [quote]I strongly prefer the breadth of arsenal weapons, the potential of finding a better Legendary then you have to being stuck because of a damage color[/quote] First of all, having a "damage color" doesn't make you stuck with a weapon for 2 reasons: 1 - damage elements in destiny serve such a trivial purpose that having arc vs. kinetic on a weapon makes almost no difference 2 - because of this, what constitutes a "better" legendary is not an element, but the weapon's perks. Having an element vs. kinetic on a weapon, again, makes almost no difference when you take into account which perks one weapon has over the other. And, if you're frequently finding vendor weapons with better perks, that's not a good thing; endgame weapons are supposed to be the best in the game. [b]And[/b], exactly how does removing the element from one weapon make the "potentially better legendary" better? Answer: it doesn't; it's a move to create the illusion of weapons being better and having more variety instead of making actual improvements. It's -blam!-ing lazy. Additionally, this problem is easily solved by making primary elements not exclusive to endgame gear. If you could infuse any legendary weapon with an element using a material reward from some high level activity, how does this not solve the problem more than complete removal of elemental primaries does? [quote]No Legendary weapons with damage colors has the property of making secondaries ad heavies more important because of their damage color[/quote] This is where Luke really lost me. If there is a quality of primary weapons that would make specials and heavies less important, it sure as hell isn't damage elements. This is for the same reasons as above. The damage element system in Destiny is almost pointless. The only purpose elements serve is to do some bonus damage to enemy shields. If you honestly think the slight bonus damage to enemy shields trivializes special and heavy weapons in the presence of an elemental primary, you should play Destiny. You should do it some time. The problem is not the potential of primary weapons to fulfill the role of specials and heavies,; the problem is stupidity of the damage element system. There you have it, Bungie taking the easy way out on an issue once again. Instead of turning eyes to the flawed element system, you remove the thing "causing the problem." The thing you removed was an incentive to earn endgame weapons, a thing that gave people reason to use some otherwise garbage weapons, a thing that didn't harm the use of special and heavy weapons as your delusions lead you to believe. You see primaries with damage elements as harmful, but rather the fault lies with the flawed system. Give elements more of a purpose in Destiny. Give every enemy an elemental weakness and resistance. Make primary weapons infusable with weak elements that don't have an effect on weaknesses and resistances, but still provide an advantage with burn modifiers, and still give the player more of an incentive to earn endgame gear. Because as of now, there is [b]absolutely -blam!-ing ZERO[/b] incentive to earn endgame weapons. If there is a balance issue, fix it. Don't just nerf or remove whatever your excel spreadsheets tell you is a problem, because it has led to a boring and lifeless game which was once far more fun, and had far more variety and incentive to play. I can't believe the guy who made the masterpieces that are Destiny's raids is the same guy who strode lengths to remove every bit of fun and reward from them.
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#feedback

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  • I do think that infuasible elemental qualities would have been a good decision, but it seems like every development decision in this game is made with the idea that if they break something, it will be nearly impossible to fix without breaking something else. I think when they retooled the original game, they must have built a house of cards out of the development platform, in the interviews with the former devs, they continually harp on how difficult it is to change the game because the proprietary engine they built for it is incredibly slow and very touchy (they mentioned it takes over 12 hours to render a minor change to the position of a resource node). I honestly believe they are heavily restricted by software that was not built to handle major changes to soft mechanics in the games infustructure. TL;DR- they built the game to not be constantly changed, but ended up having to constantly change it, making it difficult to take risks on new mechanics.

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  • Well said, I'm sure the overwhelming majority agree at this point in time. Year 2 Destiny is a unfortunate example of how a great game can degrade so quickly. And the upcoming content doesn't have me excited even a little tbh. I've thought a few times that almost any other game developers would have handled Year 2 Destiny better than Bungie has. Wow.

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  • Perfect. A well written post, scrutinizing some important decisions and changes made in the game we enjoy (mostly). I can't wait for this post to be quietly ignored.

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  • I couldn't agree more, it's like they are trying to suck every last ounce of enjoyment this game has.

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  • Well written mate, I totally agree on all your points, I'm a player since beta, and seen all of these lazy half hat nerfs and the rest. It's gonna be snipers next for the nerf. It's all a bloody shame.

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  • So in other words, you have no idea how game development works. Every single game you've ever played constantly nerfs, buffs and tweaks aspects of their game. Destiny just comes under heightened scrutiny. What this post really says is people are angry their Op weapons don't get easy kills anymore and their gear doesn't give them Op perks. Sorry if the game is harder for you now, and it was more "fun" when things were easy and Op.

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    4 Replies
    • Edited by SCHRECKLICHE: 4/4/2016 2:35:23 AM
      Well worded post. I made a post a while back about my theory as to why they removed elemental burns from legendary primaries. In summary, I believe they were removed as a long-term test to improve the popularity and balance of Exotic primaries. With [b]Zhalo Supercell[/b] being the primary item of the test. In Y1 exotic primaries were only used for PvP while their elemental damage legendary counterparts (Vision of Confluence, Fatebringer, etc.) were chosen over them for PvE content. With ALL primaries now doing Kinetic damage, it would make it MUCH easier to make a primary Exotic simply by adding a unique skin and an elemental damage now. Taking [b]Zhalo Supercell[/b] as an example: imagine it[u] no longer had Arc damage[/u]. It would be considered by most to be a novelty Exotic and very underwhelming. Add Arc damage and BAM, it's now a standout and highly sought after weapon for PvE while remaining average and fairly balanced for PvP. No more OP primary exotics (Thorn, TLW, etc.) that wreck in PvP, but are completely unwanted in PvE. [i]I believe future exotic primaries (and possibly even ones brought forward) will begin to have elemental damage tacked on while other stats nerfed/balanced to make up for it.[/i] Exotic primaries would no longer outclass legendary primaries in PvP with outstanding stats(thus leveling the playing field and giving exotic special/heavy weapons a better position in PvP) while making them "unique" and desirable for PvE content involving burns. [b]For PvE[/b] this would make most players bring an elemental exotic primary of the burn type most desired with them; making special and heavies that are a bit overpowered in PvE content (Icebreaker, Gjallarhorn, etc.) less desirable for taking up an exotic slot that could go to the elemental exotic primary. [b]For PvP[/b] this would make exotic primaries easier to balance with their legendary counterparts and, since exotic primaries would lose a little stock, give more room for special and heavy exotics which are already quick/one-shot kills regardless of being exotic or legendary. A Truth rocket only kills marginally better than legendary rockets with similar perks while currently TLW outshines practically any legendary handcannon on the market. Easy balance fix + easy way to make new exotics feel exotic.

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    • Edited by Sideswipe: 4/4/2016 1:43:39 AM
      [quote][quote]I strongly prefer the breadth of arsenal[/u] weapons, the potential of finding a better Legendary then you have to being stuck because of a damage color[/quote] First of all, having a "damage color" doesn't make you stuck with a weapon for 2 reasons: 1 - damage elements in destiny serve such a trivial purpose that having arc vs. kinetic on a weapon makes almost no difference[/quote][/quote] Then what's the big deal if they're gone? The only real purpose of element on a primary, or any weapon for that matter, was NF burns. [quote]2 - because of this, what constitutes a "better" legendary is not an element, but the weapon's perks. Having an element vs. kinetic on a weapon, again, makes almost no difference when you take into account which perks one weapon has over the other. And, if you're frequently finding vendor weapons with better perks, that's not a good thing; endgame weapons are supposed to be the best in the game. [/quote] Again, why then the hulabaloo over losing elemental primaries if they're output was trivial? [quote]Additionally, this problem is easily solved by making primary elements not exclusive to endgame gear. If you could infuse any legendary weapon with an element using a material reward from some high level activity, how does this not solve the problem more than complete removal of elemental primaries does?[/quote] You would think this would be the case, but sadly, it won't. Elemental infusion? That leads to even less diversity. People have their favorite weapons. Now I can use Hung Jury for everthing. Solar Hung Jury, Arc, and Void. Why bother with anything else? My issue with the removal of primary burns is more of a WTF than anything. Luke takes them away. Eh, whatever, not too big a deal. But then they seemingly added more shielding to enemies and for good measure added rainbow burns. So many missions and strikes have wizards with void shields, knights with arc, captains with solar, amd centurions with arc, all in the same mission and sometimes same area. I now have two slots for 3 burns. Dafuq? They take away, then make you more dependant on what they nerfed. Exotic shards ring a bell?

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    • blame the streamers....

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    • I used the fang of ir yut in this weeks nightfall and it was great. might run it again but with nechrochasm next time.

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    • Bump for later read

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    • Edited by AVERNL: 4/4/2016 12:54:19 AM
      I literally never find myself wanting for a burn primary.....just use special weapons for shields..... I think the obvious solution is to have consumables you can use to add burn modifiers to any primary weapon for a time period....have the gunsmith sell them, the end.

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    • 1
      Bump. Well put.

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    • Bump, good post

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    • Edited by Darches: 4/3/2016 11:57:37 PM
      [quote]exhumed, replenish, icarus, surrounded, underdog, guerrilla fighter, last resort, army of one, etc in order to make good perks rare as shit[/quote] Woah woah WOAH! Replenish is good for PvE (not that it matters). Icarus is awesome for PvP. I could care less about the other perks.

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    • Exactly the points I've been trying to make. Well written and on point. :)

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    • [quote]I can't believe the guy who made the masterpieces that are Destiny's raids is the same guy who strode lengths to remove every bit of fun and reward from them.[/quote]Really?I can luke looks like a dick to work with. probably is the same person who got rid of e-light.

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    • Why can't we have SRL back for another 3 weeks? ww.youtube.com/watch?v=MMKd7ZW_ub8&index=1&list=PLZUnIN1M4R_9yoPSXzV6x7d70fpy1l_eK I miss those days

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    • Bump

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    • This is beautifully well put. People like you who ask good questions and raise great points make me more upset with bungee and those who speak for them by their lack of addressing and communicating with us on these things.

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    • bump bro

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    • Beautifully put OP. I miss the feel of Y1 Destiny weapons and nothing makes me fear for this game more than hearing there is a ‘Weapon Balancing’ update planned. Every time they balance weapons they get it wrong and the game dies a little more. I think the first time was the one for fusion rifles which had an unintended effect on the Vex Mythoclast and that set the sad trend. I understand there is a need to ‘balance’ PvP weapon use but for the love of all that is holy it has taken so much fun and soul away from PvE.

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    • Sadly, this is the oh so sad truth...But it's hopefully going to give Bungie a wake up call one day..Before it's too late. ~TheOkayNike

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    • I love your posts. Finally some sense.

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    • Damn awesome post. Bump.

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    • Bumpt

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