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Edited by Slain: 4/5/2016 2:14:35 AM
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Slain

Removing Elemental Primaries Exemplifies Bungie's Lazy Approach to Solving Problems

In any game, issues arise which call for some form of change. Destiny is no exception. Throughout Destiny's life cycle, weapon balance and investment systems have seen several forms, each the result of a very basic means of solving problems: taking the lazy way out. Weapons aren't balanced? Something is being used more than everything else? [b]Nerf it![/b] Sunbreaker titans seem really powerful in comparison to some weak-ass subclasses? [b]Nerf it![/b] Elemental primaries alter the way players choose which weapons to use? [b]Get rid of them![/b] Problem solved, right? Almost every time an issue such as these has arisen in Destiny, the Bungie solution has been to nerf it or remove it from the game. While some balance is achieved in the process, what is also achieved is a scorched earth policy. Everything fun or useful in the game has always been and always will be targeted. Over three big weapons patches, the level of balance in the game has only increased slightly, if at all. What the weapon patches serve to do more than "balance" the game is to pick what people like to use and destroy it. Sure, weapons are somewhat more equal after a patch, but they are "equally shitty", as Draken Wolfe says. Why can't we have weapons that are equally good, equally useful, and equally fun to use? We could, if Jon Weisnewski and the Wrecking Crew didn't make the following [b]completely unnecessary[/b] moves: -nerfing almost every year 1 perk -replacing most middle tree nodes with useless tradeoffs which hinder use of the weapon rather than boost it, as the word "perk" would suggest -nerfing auto rifles because an Iron Banner bounty forced people to use them "too much" -nerfing hand cannons as a result of the meta shift following the auto rifle nerf -nerfing pulse rifles as a result of the meta shift following the hand cannon nerf - *inevitably* nerfing scout rifles as the result of the meta shift following the pulse rifle nerf -nerfing fusions over and over and over and over and over again because some guy in the studio knows how to use them -introducing perks like exhumed, replenish, icarus, surrounded, underdog, guerrilla fighter, last resort, army of one, etc in order to make good perks rare as shit -nerfing Gjallarhorn because your shitty boss design made it effective -nerfing Ice Breaker because your shitty boss design made it effective -nerfing Black Hammer because your shitty boss design made it effective Every one of these could have have been avoided, had you exercised a little brain power once in a while. Do you know why weapons like Ice Breaker and Black Hammer were really good? Because bosses in Destiny just stand there and beg you to shoot them in the head. But instead of making the enemies less -blam!-ing stupid, you make the weapon useless. Way to go, sandbox team. The same principle applies to Luke Smith's ass-hatted decision to remove elemental primaries from the game. [quote]They had the distinct and undesirable property of limiting a broad weapon sandbox to a few weapons[/quote] This is true. Having elements on primaries not only incentivized playing endgame activities, but also set those weapons apart from others. Playing these activities gave you a form of advantage when burns were active. Without endgame weapons having any quality that vendor weapons don't have, how does removing this added bonus achieve anything good? It makes raid weapons essentially just infusion trash, especially when you give them garbage perks and heavily randomize their quality. [quote]I strongly prefer the breadth of arsenal weapons, the potential of finding a better Legendary then you have to being stuck because of a damage color[/quote] First of all, having a "damage color" doesn't make you stuck with a weapon for 2 reasons: 1 - damage elements in destiny serve such a trivial purpose that having arc vs. kinetic on a weapon makes almost no difference 2 - because of this, what constitutes a "better" legendary is not an element, but the weapon's perks. Having an element vs. kinetic on a weapon, again, makes almost no difference when you take into account which perks one weapon has over the other. And, if you're frequently finding vendor weapons with better perks, that's not a good thing; endgame weapons are supposed to be the best in the game. [b]And[/b], exactly how does removing the element from one weapon make the "potentially better legendary" better? Answer: it doesn't; it's a move to create the illusion of weapons being better and having more variety instead of making actual improvements. It's -blam!-ing lazy. Additionally, this problem is easily solved by making primary elements not exclusive to endgame gear. If you could infuse any legendary weapon with an element using a material reward from some high level activity, how does this not solve the problem more than complete removal of elemental primaries does? [quote]No Legendary weapons with damage colors has the property of making secondaries ad heavies more important because of their damage color[/quote] This is where Luke really lost me. If there is a quality of primary weapons that would make specials and heavies less important, it sure as hell isn't damage elements. This is for the same reasons as above. The damage element system in Destiny is almost pointless. The only purpose elements serve is to do some bonus damage to enemy shields. If you honestly think the slight bonus damage to enemy shields trivializes special and heavy weapons in the presence of an elemental primary, you should play Destiny. You should do it some time. The problem is not the potential of primary weapons to fulfill the role of specials and heavies,; the problem is stupidity of the damage element system. There you have it, Bungie taking the easy way out on an issue once again. Instead of turning eyes to the flawed element system, you remove the thing "causing the problem." The thing you removed was an incentive to earn endgame weapons, a thing that gave people reason to use some otherwise garbage weapons, a thing that didn't harm the use of special and heavy weapons as your delusions lead you to believe. You see primaries with damage elements as harmful, but rather the fault lies with the flawed system. Give elements more of a purpose in Destiny. Give every enemy an elemental weakness and resistance. Make primary weapons infusable with weak elements that don't have an effect on weaknesses and resistances, but still provide an advantage with burn modifiers, and still give the player more of an incentive to earn endgame gear. Because as of now, there is [b]absolutely -blam!-ing ZERO[/b] incentive to earn endgame weapons. If there is a balance issue, fix it. Don't just nerf or remove whatever your excel spreadsheets tell you is a problem, because it has led to a boring and lifeless game which was once far more fun, and had far more variety and incentive to play. I can't believe the guy who made the masterpieces that are Destiny's raids is the same guy who strode lengths to remove every bit of fun and reward from them.
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#feedback

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  • 300 comments in, and this thread already has [i]250[/i] upvotes. I think that ratio alone speaks for itself.

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  • I wonder what Cozmo is going to say when he responds, lel

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  • Exodus, movement of jah people.

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  • Edited by TheMaestroNoob: 4/4/2016 8:46:35 AM
    Oh... oh... uh... aaaaaaa... stop it... my stomach hurts! There is a big difference between what players WANT and what players NEED. If you have a claws instead of hands and can't kill anybody without meta-guns, that is mean that you a terrible player. I don't really care when bungie nerf the guns, because it is no mater which gun I am using, I can suck in PvP with any type of guns. Bungie nerf elemental damage on primaries because of ELEMENTAL BURN. You know what I am talking about? When Atheone's Epilogue destroy everyting while Void Burn is active. If bungie will do like players WANT, then every gun will have the same stats. They all will oneshot you on any range and have no recoil. The only difference that will be is their skin. So just stop, you really hurt me. I can sue you for making my neurons die. Because killing neurons is the same as making the physical damage.

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    • Edited by MrMac: 4/4/2016 6:16:44 PM
      Well said. These days, I only have a few weapons in my arsenal that I use: Raids: Primary: Hung Jury (because of Firefly), Touch of Malice Secondary: 1KYS (Maxed Stability), Black Spindle Heavy: Qullim's Terminus I have not used or found any use for Rocket Launchers. Crucible: Primary: Skorri's Revenge (Y1), Mida Multi-tool, and now, Finnala's Peril (just got it) Secondary: Shotguns, nothing specific. I rotate between Party Crasher, Burden of Proof, The Next Big Thing Heavy: Baron's Ambition (Machine Gun). I also have not found it practical to use Rocket Launchers in the Crucible. I used to have a collection of weapons in Y1 and I had a great time switching from one class to another. I was like a kid in a candy shop! These days, I just use what works or what gets the job done, and there are so few reliable ones. Is it fun? No. It's boring.

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    • Bump again

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    • Heck of post Kabr! I always enjoy reading your post.

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    • The truth will set you free

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    • *slow clap* [spoiler]shit there goes 500 silver[/spoiler]

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    • Tl:dr Don't know if you've already stated this in... that, but whether it has an element on it or not isn't going to alter my decision to use a raid weapon, I'm going to use it because it's a raid weapon.

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    • Bump

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    • Elemental Primaries could have been 'solved' with a far more creative approach. The answer would have to been to do the following: Enable artifacts to grant elemental damage to primaries instead of their current 'perks' which are useless and simply stat padding items. For example: 'The artifact grants void damage to any equipped scout rifle' The Ghorn issue was less to do with elitism and more to do with the dire recruitment tools available in Destiny. Two social spaces and no way to signify in-game that you want to tackle Nightfall, Trials, Raid etc. How difficult would it have been to provide tower/reef class items that signify your availability and activity interest? Or to create room for specific activities? King's Fall is a great raid that has had the interest pummeled out of it due to terrible loot drops and a mediocre raid set except sniper and MG which are decent. Crota's End may have been the least exciting raid to date but it still featured some exceptional weapons which made the effort worth it all. The Fang of Ir Yut was awesome and when you finally got The Crux to drop - happy days. There are two underlying problems holding Destiny back 1. Bungie often are presented with two ways to solve a problem. They often choose the 'easiest' solution which represents the least work to them and the worst pay off to the players 2. The content creation tools are clearly far too cumbersome. This April update we are getting would be far better if it had dropped in January. Really we should be getting new quests and challenges every month. We should not be left with one raid for 7-8 months.

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    • Agree. 100%. Any excuse I get to use my year one primaries with dmg types on them I jump on. I can rely on my Fatebringer to get me out of any mess, any day of the week. Removing the elements from primary sits comfortably near the top of the VERY LONG list of -blam!- ups that Bungie just seems really good at making longer.

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    • The removal of elemental primaries was one of the worst decisions in the history of the game... And it was totally unnecessary. They provided a reason to play the end-game content, and served as a fitting and satisfying reward for completing the end game challenges be it hard mode raids or trials of Osiris. Weapons like fatebringer were used more due to their other perks than the fact that they had arc damage. Just look at how many people use hung jury as sold by the vendor... A strong weapon in a strong class. I have been waiting for Bungie to re-visit this decision since before it was implemented. There have been polls 90% favorable for getting them back, but no response other than referencing Luke Smith's idiotic quote. I still have 5 of them in my vault... Along with black hammer and and a dry rot I ran 200 strikes for. Would be nice to be able to use them again... And get new ones.

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    • I use a smaller variety of primary weapons now that elements have been removed then when they had elements in Year 1.

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    • HELL YES!!! You preach it man.

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    • Edited by Ghost_Hawk_One: 4/5/2016 12:27:20 AM
      we get elemental burn defense on armor...for what? PvE? rofl. I don't see everyone using 'Zhalo Supercell' and not ONE person ever complained about it being OP so they have NO legitimate defense about not bringing them back. They were just fine where they were when we had them. BUNGIE just likes to be jerks to its customer base from what ive seen. Most likely, they really removed them so they can add them in a later DLC or Destiny 2 and think people are going to be all hyped up about it. they always have some shady agenda behind these things.

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    • Removing elemental primaries was a [b]good[/b] thing in view of Burn modifiers in PoE and Nightfall. Made them a walk through really. It increased the difficulty of those events because you could no longer hoard a 200 clip elemental SR and just melt everything in your path. Sadly Nightfall in it's current state isn't really worth running due to the rewards and PoE isn't updated yet.

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      • Given that Bungies reason for not bringing Y1 weapons forward was to encourage weapon diversity........ It's ironic that I use far less guns in Y2 than Y1........

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      • I read "nerfing Gjallarhorn because of recruitment elitists" and stopped reading there. It totally wasn't because Gjallarhorn trivialized most encounters or anything like that, nope.

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        • yeah i completely agree with this i don't play the raid at the moment because there aren't elemental weapons, the weapons themselves are either just plain bad or are subject to getting a good roll which makes light level the only reason to do that but since the raid is the only thing that requires a high light level and light level is almost irrelevent in all pvp including iron banner and trials there really isn't a reason for me to go through the ball-ache of grinding out a load of 320 gear that until the april update will lose half its value when i infuse it into the decent gear i had drop in literally every other activity because again raid stuff either flat out sucks or is subject to rng

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          • Hey!!! I actually like Icarus...

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          • Tl;dr

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          • well put.. elements on primaries could be very interesting in pvp with the added armour we can wear. Nightfalls with the burns arn't really that easy if you only use your primary, and you are correct.. it gave reason to actually do the end game raid to obtain the weapons. the added perks they have given us are regarded as garbage.. icarus.. really.. i'm going to equipt some weapon that allows me to have better aim while in the sky.. do you see alot of players wearing the titan helmet that allows this or using the warlock ability? maybe in pve where the bosses seem like idiots but, agains guardians its a dumb idea.. just a big neon sign to shoot me please. the elements were fun, like many aspects of the game that as op wrote, just get removed instead of retooled. instead of nerfing everything making someones favorite weapon garbage, the reverse could have been done and simply buff everything else.. that way your favorite weapons can still be used and other weapons get a bit better. nobody needs to change the weapons because they have been messed with and you can choose for freely to make a change.

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          • Edited by Sai Mota: 4/4/2016 10:00:44 PM
            I really don't mind at all, at first i wasn't happy to not be using Fatebringer and VoC moving forward but i got over it, found new weapons i loved, it just isn't a big deal to me.

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          • Well I can't say you don't have a point. The bullet sponge juggernaut bosses of year one did invalidate the use of many weapons, but the Ice Breaker and Gjallahorn patches were completely reasonable. Look at the first week of HoW's release, spamming Gjallahorn was so efficient during solar burn weeks because it allowed for fireteams to virtually ignore all of the bosses mechanics. And Ice Breaker stopped players from embracing what they are intended to be in Destiny, nearly unstoppable killing machines. As for elemental primaries, that was more of a touch to make the game harder in PvE activities. It turned the raid weapons into somewhat of a crutch, and butchered weapon diversity in the endgame. How often have you seen a player in year one not using a raid weapon or an exotic primary in a PvE activity? Well, you don't. I can't even exaggerate on how much I used Fatebringer (best gun in the game) in year one. From my first hard mode VoG all the way to TTK. The elemental damage on top of the explosive rounds butchered any shields, as well as having ridiculous crowd control potential. As well as Black Hammer making any boss a joke. So as far as it being a little lazy, i can sympathize with you, but in the end, it was justifiable.

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