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Edited by Lost Sols:
1/3/2016 3:09:29 AM
129
Actual weapon "diversity" numbers from Iron Banner and what they tell us.
Thank-you to gallp13 for showing me these stats. Weapon use stats for Iron Banner this week so far:
Scouts 18.61%
Shotguns 17.79%
Auto Rifles 15.66%
Pulse Rifles 13.65%
Snipers 10.31%
Machine Guns 8.95%
Hand Cannons 8.5%
Rocket Launchers 3.28%
Fusion Rifles 1.18%
Swords 1.07%
Sidearms 1.01%
I wish we could see numbers from early last year, but they don't go back that far. Pulse Rifles were at 24% use before they were nerfed. No idea on Hand Cannons pre 2.0
This is Bungie's idea of balancing though. JW apparently thinks wanting actual balanced weapons (which we had right up until they gutted ARs in 1.1.1) makes us idiots.
JW and his sandbox team don't care if weapons are fun and they don't care if they're balanced performance wise. Their one and only criteria is what we equip and they "balance" on usage.
ARs were equipped too much. Didn't matter they were not even the best primaries at the time in actual performance, they got destroyed.
Hand Cannons were probably up over 20% usage. Didn't matter that Scouts and Pulse Rifles could beat them, now they're under 10%
Pulse Rifles were at 25% usage. Never mind that they were still beatable by Scouts and that they were only outclassing ARs and Hand Cannons because Bungie ruined them, Pulse Rifles had to be nerfed.
Now Scouts are dominating. They're only at 18%, but that's over double Hand Cannons and what's worse, MIDA double anything else in IB. It doesn't matter that it's just a really good weapon. It doesn't matter that it's the same 4 hit kill it's always been. It doesn't matter that all these nerfs make the game less fun. It doesn't matter that the weapon nerfs, removal of elemental primaries, reforging, Etheric Light and all their stupid dumbing down of anything fun doesn't jibe with their mantra of us growing more powerful.
Bungie balance on what we equip and if we like it, it's -blam!-ed.
Shotguns 18%
Snipers 10%
Fusion Rifles 1%
Sidearms 1%
The answer is to keep making shotguns worse. Keep making them less fun. Because surely it's easier than making Fusion and Sidearms more fun, right?
We deserve the real numbers and the real stats. Click on the profile of anyone who has had the same account/gamertag since the Halo days and go to their profile. Click legacy stats and be amazed at the depth of information available after every single match.
Who was killed by whom and by what. Where they were killed, how many times. Everything you needed to know about what weapons did what was right there.
We can't have real statistics though because then people might actually try deciding on their own how they like to play, rather than JW and crew dictating what we use and making us grind something new every other month.
I have not had fun playing a single match of IB this week. For the first time it's a chore just desperately trying to find some -blam!-ing weapon that I don't hate.
Funny, I -blam!-ing loved my year one gear.
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They should buff every weapon type in regular crucible (not iron banner and Osiris) and take away level based matchmaking then equally nerf all weapons in iron banner and Osiris making them harder and more prestigious.
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22 RepliesEdited by Hektik: 1/5/2016 12:37:31 AMOh for the love of flying spaghetti monster can we stop looking at weapon popularity as a sign of balance? If all your maps are built for CQC then CQC weapons will be popular. If alll your maps are built with long sight lines then all long range weapons will be popular. No matter how much balancing Bungie does based off of a specific weapons popularity there will always be a popular weapon. Part of this is "monkey see monkey do". If youtuber PvP God_001 is using a rusty fish hook then you're going to see a whole lot of rusty fish hooks flying around. STOP LOOKING AT USAGE NUMBERS.
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1 ReplyIs that a no on the source?
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Where are these numbers from? Can I get a source? I'm interested
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29 Replies[quote]Because surely it's easier than making Fusion and Sidearms more fun, right?[/quote]I'm not a Bungie Employee, and I apologize if I haven't read many of your other posts which might have covered this, but what would be your ideas for making Fusion Rifles and Sidearms more fun? Personally I find I have much more trouble accurately appraising Sidearms and Fusion Rifle performance based on their stats; it often leads to a hit and miss experience which tends to drive me towards Snipers and Shotguns because they're much easier to understand.
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4 Replies"MIDA double anything else in IB." I'd like to point out that the reason scout riffles and MIDA specifically is used so much is because of the need to counter sniper riffles in competitive play. MIDA has become the go to main in ToO due to the flinch value, giving the gun a little bit better of a chance againsed a hard scoping sniper. I think this has just flooded over into all game types but MIDA being used so much in ToO is stemming from over effectiveness of sniper riffles at close and medium range.
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5 RepliesNerf shotguns? You're kidding right? They're already bad. Nerf snipers dude, anyone and everyone can snipe, it's not the way it should be.
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Honestly snipers and shotguns should have and 15%-30% usage the most used secondary weapons
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5 RepliesPre 1.1.1 was Suros. Don't lie. It was Suros/Autos or get shredded.
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Buff all the perks again. = better game
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I believe diversity is an old old wooden ship used in the civil war era
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5 RepliesEdited by SugaComa: 1/4/2016 8:00:46 PMI don't want to see stats for usage I want to see stats for time to kill Balance only occurs when two people facing off at Optimum range for their weapon and both players trade kills this is your constant and point of reference This means the TTK is balanced the deciding factor then on who wins a shoot out comes down to what is the variables Variable include, who shot first, who is most accurate, which of the players was in the preferred range for the weapon. Now all a player has to do is pick a gun that works to their play style ensure they are stacking the variables and as such will begin to win the firefights ... But as long as the constant is balanced then it doesn't matter if 25% people use one weapon compared to 11% using another becuase those figures are now representing playstyles and stacking of the variables. Problem we have... Bungie are balancing based on variables not the constants ... Bungie need a -blam!-ing nerf to their idiots put in charge of compiling the data on which to base the balancing. I seriously wonder how people do math these days ... I had some scrote telling me that kdr is the most important thing in crucible ... Yet I've seen games lost where Ayers got great kdrs but controlled 1 or none zones so the points didn't work in their favour. I worry about the mentality of Destiny's gamers ... 90% seem to be retarded or just too stupid to see the truth. Luckily Sols you sem to be of the other 10%
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2 RepliesOff topic, Im just now playing IB with my hunter and wow Im doing waaaay better than with my titan or warlock. Snipers and mida everywhere, but still toping with my zhalo. XD first time playing IB with my hunter and am regretting not having done it sooner. Melees are fast as -blam!-.
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7 RepliesIt's not surprising. Remember the hopscotch pilgrim nightmare of a nerf? All those people that put in hundreds of hours for a single weapon only to be struck down with the careless click of a button? All the perks that have been removed from weapons. All the reforging we did for obsolescence. It's obvious their ideas of fairness and across the board equilibrium is menacing and dictatorially unsuccessful; their motives are often impulsive and reconciliatory regardless of the data they say they're vigilant of. Balance will not be achieved when god's arthritic hand adjusts an imperfect guardian's weapon. Good post, Sols.
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Yes! I'm in the 1% using side arms :)
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I love my sidearm. Up until I finished all my rank fives and thought that I should probably get in that shotgun part of the chaperone questline that's the only thing I used for Iron Banner.
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Most stats show kills, not 'equips', which still tells part of the story. Fusions definitely need their accuracy returned. They were good but required a bit of skill before. Now they are rubbish, even the previously good ones. Pulse never needed a nerf, they just needed to fix everything else. MIDA is largely responsible for the scout rifle jump. It's insane. Which is fine but it's a weapon from the days of Y1 exotics, like Thorn.
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Sad part is if you were to base it on real performance you'd get a completely different story. People knew the mida was strong during that week we got the trail of the new "crucible" updates. Movement speed, perma radar, one of the fastest ttk's of the new update, one of the best scopes, and the best clip capacity any scout has ever seen. Frankly its the only scout that's better then a sack of shit and always has been. Literally there is no other scout that comes near this gun. They never did anything with it because: IT WAS A YEAR ONE GUN. Boom the perfect balance to it. Can't use it in trails or IB but it still remains a perfectly fine and fun gun to use. IB is a good way to get raw data on what gun i used the most but ToO, Elimi, and Skirmish are the best way to get actual performance data on a weapon. 3's have always boiled down to picking power, and long range camp fests at high level game play. Every meta set has been like this since it started. How can I kill this guy without him getting near me. The Mida is just next in line because its prowess at ranged in un-matched thanks to the range nerfs to every other class. It wouldn't have been that bad if bungie had actually given the auto riffles the buffs they said they would. Mostly because they counter scouts the best out of any weapon. But you know the biggest lie to ever come from bungie and now the mida's gettin axed.
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2 RepliesYes hand guns were virtually nonexistent I still rock a fusion rifle though Mida was everywhere
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5 RepliesI have a suggestion! [i][b]Remove heavy from PvP[/b][/i], or at least make it so that it only spawns once in 6v6 while removing it from 3v3.
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I did see mida a lot, but this is honestly the first time I've ever seen all weapon classes being used in the crucible, and each seemed to be killing rather efficiently. Any gun in the right hands is a deadly tool right now
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Having played through the IB I'm afraid I have to disagree with your conclusion. The games more balanced than its ever been, and this is an important step in the right direction. This wasn't all that apparent to me before, but now I'm used to it I appreciate the changes. But that's all it is, a step the right way. Fusions, sidearms, [i]non exotic[/i] hand cannon and slightly pulse rifles all need looked into. The disparity is nowhere near where it was though, and if this trend continues I'll be glad. However I do agree that play testing and not usage should guide balance. Too many people pick the guns the internet tells them, rather than exploring alternatives (Inward Lamp vs Mida worked for me). They then have to overcompensate to force players to diversify, and overcome the 'Meme gun' effect.
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1 ReplyEdited by Tower0426: 1/4/2016 6:24:24 PMNot sure if anyone has mentioned, but these statistics are a little misleading Scouts 18.61% Shotguns 17.79% Auto Rifles 15.66% Pulse Rifles 13.65% Snipers 10.31% [b]Machine Guns 8.95%[/b] Hand Cannons 8.5% [b]Rocket Launchers 3.28%[/b] Fusion Rifles 1.18% [b]Swords 1.07%[/b] Sidearms 1.01% I've highlighted the heavy weapons to make a point These usage stats are based on what weapons we used the most to kill the opponent. Not what weapons are actually being equipped / used the most. This is based on kills with said weapon type. you can tell this is the case because if this was just “What weapons were used the most” (equipped) then all three heavy weapons would have a much larger percentage of the overall data since there are only three and you have to use one of the three. Now, we know that Scouts are in a very good place right now and in the hands of a good player the scout rifle is a dominant weapon. Bungie has even said recently that the Scout Rifle has been the top weapon for the top 10% of the PVP player base. That being said, you have to account for this. The better crucible players are (mostly) using scout rifles at the moment. They are the most flexible weapons and any PVP veteran is going to use what they feel is best for the most situations. This means that a small number of players will be skewing the data in favor of scout rifles because they will be accounting for a larger number of primary weapon kills using said weapon. (They are better than you, they get more kills than you) Now we know two things: The best players are using Scout Rifles and account for a large spike in kills, and these stats are based off kills and not actual usage. Knowing this, we can assume the following: [b]Scouts, Autos, and Pulse Rifles are all actually (probably) being used at an extremely similar rate[/b]. The top players in Destiny are using mostly Scout Rifles, this is a fact based on what bungie has said in recent interviews, so that 5% difference in kills (which is what these stats really are) should be the the top 10% of players, theoretically at least.
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Should organize them by slot. Otherwise means nothing. Of course heavy weapons are low.
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Machine Guns were seriously used more than hand cannons. You guys need to learn how to use something other than a mida and a sniper.
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3 RepliesI just returned after a couple of months off for my first IB since 2.0 patch. Well, at least it wasn't all Thorn and Felwinters Lie this time around.
