Now this argument has been going on for so long and I see the same arguments repeated over and over and over. I've decided to post on this topic one more time in a central location so I'm not jumping around. This isn't a thread for silly arguments. This is a place to have an actual objective conversation about the Sunbreaker class. Specifically in regard to how well it performs in PvP. I also will not be talking about exotic item features that are used to enhance classes. If you feel a particular exotic item makes a class op than that is the fault of the exotic and doesn't mean the case class itself is unbalanced. It means you should be asking bungie to nerf that item. This class is not op and it's super does not make it op either. It is a balanced class because it has a good super game but a slightly poorer than average neutral game. Neutral game being what most Guardians will spend the majority of their play time in. I will start from top to bottom on why it isn't. Grenades: Seriously people the grenades for this class are not the best. There are classes with better grenades hands down and it isn't a small list. The SB subclasses best grenade is by far the Fusion grenade which isn't a bad grenade, but it isn't exactly the best grenade in the game. For those that like to mention Thermite grenades being okay. Thermite grenades are a terrible grenade compared to other area control grenades in this game like the Striker lightning grenade and the Nightstalker Voidwall grenade. Thermite is harder to place less versatile and easier to avoid. For those that insist that Incendiary grenades are good need to answer me one question. If it is so good why is the most used and lethal Gunslinger grenade Tripemine. It's because Tripmine is so much better and useful. So back to the Fusion Grenade. It's once again not bad but considering that other classes have a version of that grenade, some a better version, it's not exactly a good argument to say Sunbreaker's aren't getting somewhat hosed in this department. I mean Axion Bolt, Lightning, Arc Bolt, Flame Bolt, Suppression, Void Wall, Call Lightning, these grenades are just as good if not better but most of these grenades also come paired with the ability to use a sticky grenade as well. So in the grand scheme of things Fusion Grenades still rank average on the grenade scale. Melee: Melting point is only good in PvE as it doesn't really help in pvp in too many scenarios. Thermal Vent is a good add on for its Damage over Time ability but considering the Titan T-Rex arms problems it becomes almost a liability to try and use it. Most likely when you are using this ability it is because you know you're about to die and you are hoping to get a post mortem from it. Still let's look at other classes melee. First off Warlocks just gets a much longer range across the board. Sunsinger can get a free overshield just off of a hit. Which is much more likely to land do to increase range. Voidwalkers melee gives them ability to regenerate grenades faster which Voidwalker has good grenades so that is a big plus. Now let's move unto Hunters. First off Gunslinger gets Throwing Knife which gives them a ranged melee attack which can do a good amount damage. It won't one shot but no melee is going to one shot anyways. By the way you can spec that knife to also get a DoT effect like Thermal Vent. So now it is a longer range version of what SB can get. Bladedancer's get blink strike which once again gives them a range advantage over Titans. You can also gain invisibility off of this melee attack for free simply by landing a hit. Nightstalker gets smoke which I admit isn't going to be netting many kills but considering it's versatility and range. Plus Toxin which can slow and damage an enemy I think they get the better end of the deal, although I will admit in this case an argument can be made for a toss up because Nightsalker's melee isn't as lethal on impact. So SB has a decent melee but it is limited by it's range and in pvp with shotguns everywhere that is an important factor. So it's melee isn't as useful as many other classes are. Non-Super Passives: This is where the Sunbreaker really suffers. I've heard people say they have non super passives in Fleetfire and Cauterize. I don't really count Simmering Flames as a passive because it needs a full super bar to become active plus if you are a SB you are always going super when you get the chance so it's kind of a wasted spot. Fleetfire can be nice but come on. Increased agility stackable three times plus it only activates on grenade, melee, or super kills? That's not worth giving up Flameseeker or Explosive Pyre. And it is still rubbish compared to other neutral game passives. As for Cauterize. It is a good ability but honestly in PvP it is only really coming into play in super mode or saving you from a possible DoT kill. Basically if you aren't in super mode the odds of Cauterize saving your life in a normal neutral scenario is extremely low. So for the purposes of PvP it might as well just be counted a super booster perk. In PvE it is extremely nice to have though. Now let's look at the passives other classes get. Striker: Shoulder Charge(great passive), Aftershocks(Increased Lightning Grenade and Aftermatch Duration Awesome), Transfusion(Immediate Health Regen on Shoulder Charge and melee kills also good), Juggernaut(Can be useful especially for closing distances). Gunslinger: Gunslinger's Trance(Increased Stability times 3 Extremely useful in firefights), Gambler's Dagger (Extra Flaming Death Throwing Knife) Bladedancer: Fleet Footed(Nice), Quick Draw(Extremely Useful for Gun Fights). Nightstalker and Defender: These classes don't really excel in this area either. Defender is bad though and Nightstalker makes up for it in other areas. VoidWalker: Surge, Lifesteal, Soul Rip (All really good to have on especially with their longer range melee attack), Embrace the Void (Immediately trigger energy drain with super or grenade kill. That's awesome), Vortex Mastery (Increase Range and Duration of various effects including Axiom Bolt) Sunsinger: I'm sorry but getting an extra grenade is fantastic Stormcaller: I don't know as much one so I won't comment. Also let's not forget the classes that get Shadestep or Blink which in pvp are amazing abilities to have. So you take all these things and you realize that overall the neutral game for Sunbreaker titan's is low end. They either are average or below compared to other classes. They don't get anything approaching Blink, Shadestep or other passives in the neutral game setting of pvp. Cauterize is their closest but like I said it isn't helping that much. Super: Yes the Sunbreaker Super is a great super. It needs to be to balance the class out. But even than it is not the unstoppable monster people make it out to be. It does still have weaknesses. It less accurate, less range, and slower than golden gun. They still are slower and less agile than a bladedancer super. Yes Titan skating can be nice but it still doesn't hold a candle to a bladedancer moving around. The hammers are easier avoid than other supers. About the only thing I could see needing tweeked is the duration could possibly be shortened slightly. Now I don't mean weaknesses in that the super will be easy to take down but there are avenues you can take to try to avoid the super for extended amounts of time. Now if lowered the armor on the super and made it easier for SBs to get killed in super mode the class would be garbage. This is just from a statistic standpoint. I have noticed in games where people have been able to suppress my super or I have been unlucky and wasted it my k/d ratio and overall score and change drastically. Now before you say that's because I use the super as a crutch to hide my lack of skill I'm actually pretty good at this game. My kdr has always been around 1.3-1.6 range. Most of this coming from playing the Striker class. And my best games have come from playing Striker because they have the better neutral game hands down over sb. Also from a data standpoint it looks like from kdr perspective SB and Stormcaller are falling in line with each other. Of course we may have to wait for more accurate data with the Nightsalker glitch possibly hurting any realistic data that could be collected.